I am an American expat living in Finland while my wife finishes her teaching degree. (Actually used to work for the Post). You should investigate the problems of immigrants and being educated. While Finland is, overall a nice place, there is a current of hostility towards immigrants thats not addressed very much. If you don't speak the language "perfectly" you don't get a job and sometimes even if you do speak the language, those jobs go to Finns. There are immigrants here that have advanced degrees who have not worked for years. And now the complaint is that they need to hire foreign workers for the older people that are retiring, while ignoring the trained workers that are already here with great educations. I personally was told by the employment counselor that I was "too old" to work in FInland and I'm only 45 with a Masters Degree in Computer Science. I agree that the educational system in Finland is second to none, but what happens after completing that education is of great concern to Finns and immigrants alike. Too many Finns have finished school only to be unemployed for years and finally take their skills elsewhere, where they can get better jobs and higher paper and feel that they are valued more.

To measure the success of the Finnish educational system it might be good to compare it to the systems in the other Nordic countries. Having gotten my education in Finland and having seen some of the systems in Sweden and Norway, I feel that one reason for Finlands success is that the main emphasis in Finland is that a pupil is in school to learn, to get an education. Strangely the emphasis is the other Nordic countries is more on that students should enjoy themselves and become well integrated members of society. While this is certainly important, one must not assume that an educational system is effective just because a lot of money is poured into it. I thus feel that the other Nordic countries got too used to their good systems and changed the priorities without realizing that the results would change too.

The very last comment by a teacher stating that Finns have to have something to show that they're very good at something is very telling really. Finns have a very very low self esteem as a nation for some reason. And this comes to show in sports, especially when played against Sweden. Finns don't generally mind that they lost in the recent ice hockey world cup, but if they just could have beaten those Swedes, darn it.

About the last point of Finnish knowing english so well... I don't think this has to do so much about teachers being good as the fact that in Finland the tv-shows and movies are not dupped. That is contrary to most of the non-english-speaking nations in the world that I know of. So we start to learn english - subconsciously - at a very young age.

Hi, I'm a mexican american living in finland for the past 3 years. As Michel had stated earlier, it is VERY difficult to find a job in finland, especially if you are a foreigner. I myself even with a bachelors in mechanical engineering ended up working in a english preschool. In this country, if you are a foreigner, everyone basically assumes that you are a refugee. Especially if you have dark features. Gypsies aren't even considered human. I would be surprised if they are accounted for in the census. They say gypsies don't go to school, but they don't look like gypsies until they are married, at that point, they decide whether or not they will wear their traditional dresses and from then on, they wear them all the time.

But let me tell you the true reason why finnish students do so well on tests. Teachers are a small part of the reason, the big reason is CULTURE. That's right, there is nothing more important to a finnish family than the education of their children. The parents talk about their children's studies all the time, they help their children study, they proof read, they make special tests for them, they send them to extra intensive courses just before the big end of year exams. You see, in this country, you're either educated or you are "amatti" un-educated.

Finland has a holiday called Vappu on May 1st. On this day, everyone who graduated from highschool (not vocational school) wears a white hat. By law, you only have to attend school up to the 9th grade. People begin schooling at the age of 7 years old, therefore being a bit more mature. At the age of 14, they are expected to decide if they will do highschool(who can go on to university) or vocational school(to learn a trade like plumbing, janitor, road repair, truck driving,super blue collar work). Then the kids in highschool need to decide if they will pursue high math(for engineering and accounting) or low math(for liberal arts, hotel and tourism, etc..). At this point, the grand divide begins. Most students of high math only mingle with other high math students. Low math only mingle with low math students and the same with vocational school students. Then, the students who go off to university rarely would date or even imagine marrying someone who did not have a university degree. They call the people who go off to junior college(vocational school) "AMMIS" and it's not a compliment.

So this is one big reason for why they do so well in school. In the schools, there is absolutely no respect for teachers. They call their teachers by their first names or they make up degrading nicknames for them and say it to their face. Many of the finnish teachers that I know go off and get drunk just as much as any teachers I know in Los Angeles. Actually, since getting drunk at a party in finland is almost "required", I am sure Finnish teachers are drunk more often.

Another major factor has to be the fact that most finns only have one child. So this child receives a lot of attention and investment. The low birth rate also aids in their low child mortality rate. It's easier to hit a target with a rifle than with a machine gun.

I seriously doubt that the finnish teachers deserve most of the credit. It's like a doctor in Florida taking credit for the great tan everybody in Florida has. It's the culture!

At this moment, I have completed my masters of Material Science in the University of Tampere. This has to be the easiest system in the world. In all of my classes, there was only a final exam for each class. Rarely did most students ever show up to lectures. Copies of old exams are available in the department offices. And the new exams tend to repeat the same questions as the old ones. So it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to fail an exam. But it is also VERY VERY difficult to get a perfect or near perfect score. Compared to my Bachelors from Cal Poly Pomona where we had almost weekly quizes, mid-terms, then final exams plus homework that was a part of your grade. But maybe at masters level everywhere in the world, life gets this easy.

They also practice in highschool by using many old exams.

In Los Angeles, in my schools, that was always considered cheating. If anyone was caught with old exams in the university, something bad happened to them. And teachers were not allowed to make copies of books of anything. We had to buy them or check them out of the library. But in europe, it is not illegal to copy something if it is for educational purposes. That is why we do not need to buy books in europe for univeristy courses. The teachers give us copies of books and notes and handouts to study from.

So these are some of the factors that go into those high scores. So if you want those high scores for your children, now you know what you have to do.

Eduardo Hernandez
lebite@yahoo.com

If you would like to know a little more about life in Tampere, Finland, you can visit my webpage.

http://www.students.tut.fi/~hernand2/tampereinfo/

I agree with Eduardo, culture plays a big role in our "educational achievements".

But to say that there's a "grand divide" between "high math" and "low math" students is exaggerating. Yes, students who go to vocational school/high school tend to socialize more among their peers, but that's mainly because high schools and vocational schools are usually far apart from each other, geographically.

"They also practice in highschool by using many old exams.
In Los Angeles, in my schools, that was always considered cheating."

I wonder how Finns did so well in PISA (good ol' PISA, always there when you need it :)http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
if they only get grades because of cheating.

How good a joob can you get in the States if you don't speak good English? I think it is quite natural that if you need to work in a Finnish environment, the employers will hire someone who has the language skills. There are government funded language and employment courses for foreigners, that help immigrants and refugees get started in their careers. I'm not saying there is no prejudice against hiring those who are not native Finns; as a first generation Finn in my family I get asked of my heritage quite often, but I have learned that having another mother tongue is often considered to be an advantage, since I also speak excellent Finnish.

My brother is from the US and married a Finnish girl. They have two sons. My brother teaches at the university and has tenure. He loves his job and likes the the 'first name' camaraderie with his students. His sons are amazingly well-educated and know more about the world than I do. They speak fluent English and Finnish. All Finns can obtain a great education as it is free and they receive a stipend for living expenses.

Ah, I didn't accuse the finns of cheating. I just said that in my schools in Los Angeles it was considered cheating if you had copies of old exams.

Whatever you define as cheating.. well.. depends on you I guess.

When you come from a very small country, it's easy to know more about the outside world. It's easy to forget the rest of the world when you live in a huge city or a dynamic country.

"When you come from a very small country, it's easy to know more about the outside world. It's easy to forget the rest of the world when you live in a huge city or a dynamic country."

Yes, this is true, but it has nothing to do with PISA test. Finns did well in maths as well.

Hola Eduardo,

I sure hope your Finnish wife isn't reading your comments here. So much negativity...

I think it's because the high caffeine consuming rate, boosting brains.

You really need to look into finnish nature. All those lakes (Finland is called the country of thousands of lakes), forests... The effect of clean and close proximity nature is built into our personalities (very easy to understand the whole Scandinavia through this).

I suggest it to be combined with the sauna-experience.

I think one important point in finnish schools is that after every 45-minute class, there is a 15-minute recess, where most children (do they still?) go outside and have a chance to release pent-up energy! I mean, how come other school systems haven't realized this?

Mikko: Yes they still do. In comprehensive school (schoolyears 1-9). School is not all work, there's time for sports & play.

Elementary and secondary education in Finland may be excellent, but I would argue that university education is subpar. I think this may be partially due to the Finnish language and top-ranked foreigners becoming scared off by high taxation and lack of job opportunities post-graduation. There is no Harvard, Oxford, or Sciences Po in Finland.
Also, as in health care, when you are educating children, it is a lot easier if the variables- race, religion, economic background, language of the parents, are all the same. Try applying Finnish educational techniques in an American classroom and you will not get the same results because there are too many differences with our children. As Finland becomes less homogeneous it will be interesting to observe if the same problems other western, more mixed countries experience surface in Finnish classrooms.

I read all your blogs so far and was amazed of the accuracy. Usually foreign reporters coming to Finland don't want to spend time getting the real information. They just write about how it seems and what they have heard in their home countries.

I'm a freshman in university, so I've experienced the whole Finnish educational system. As unbeliavable as it seems, it really is as good as what we say it is. When Finnish kids graduate from high-schools (or upper secondary schools, another translation for Finnish lukio), they all know at least English and Swedish on a level of which the American conterparts can only imagine. I've never met or heard of an American high-school graduate, who really can communicate in another language than English. And by the way, my English comes from the Finnish educational system, I've never lived abroad.

So thanks for your nice reports, I'll be coming on your site again for sure :)

I just want to thank everyone for this lively discussion! Lucian and I have never had such intense and immediate feeback. If we keep up with it while we're in Finland, that's all we'll be able to do! But we will tune in from time to time, and we will answer questions too.

"There is no Harvard, Oxford, or Sciences Po in Finland."
There's no Harvard etc. in Sweden, Norway or any other small country either.

"Also, as in health care, when you are educating children, it is a lot easier if the variables- race, religion, economic background, language of the parents, are all the same."
I agree, at least partly. I can't see how heterogeneity affects health care, but it undoubtedly affects education.

We had a computer glitch that mistakenly disabled our e-mail address, finlanddiary@washingtonpost.com. You can send us private mail to this address now. It is working again. Sorry we had this problem.

I've only been to Finland once (20 years ago, only for a week, to perform at a summer music festival) and really liked Helsiniki a lot.

I hope you can do a story on the arts in Finland.

Aki Kaurismaki is one of my favorite film directors and I adore "The Match Factory Girl". My husband doesn't 'get it' at all, but would you Finnish commenters say that's a good example of Finnish character and humor?

Early Modern Finnish textile, design and architecture is wonderful.

What are the art schools like?

What is the music scene like? (rock, pop, clubs, etc.)

Eduardo -you sound like an angry middle-aged man disappointed about the way your life turned out...

Having gone through the Finnish educational system in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, I would say that it is excellent. Having students decide after 9th grade whether they want to go to high school or to vocational school is brilliant -contrary to what Eduardo purports above, those who go to vocational school are not somehow deemed "second-class" citizes, but rather their vocational training gives them status that similar level workers in the U.S., for example, don't have. This is supported by the fact that those with vocational training can receive the same health care, same education for their children, and live in similar housing as those with college degrees. My immediate family is all vocational-school educated, some of my extended family members are college educated, and I have a Ph.D. -I lived among, went to school with and played with children from all socioeconomic backgrounds, many of whom are still my friends. I was enrolled in "low math" courses (as Eduardo has translated lyhyt matikka), and "high language" courses, and I have to say that the allegation that there is some kind of a divide between those two groups is ridiculous! Nobody cared, and if anything, those in "high math" were considered nerds! (Typical of teenagers!)

My parents never checked on any of my school work, because they trusted that the teachers and the school system were doing their job. A great example of this is the fact that when I attended college in the U.S., my class mates, who spoke English as their native language, had me proof read their papers because my writing, grammar and spelling skills were so much better than theirs -and I didn't learn these from watching U.S. television programming (Which I hardly ever did -we had three TV channels with interesting programming from about 6pm to midnight.)

Eduardo seems to have confused two things... Vappu is "tyolaistenpaiva," the same as May Day around the world, deemed to celebrate "the worker," whatever that means. Have you ever wondered what the Vappu marches are about? Who is marching and why? Another confusion for Eduardo seems to be that he equates addressing a teacher by first name with a sign of disrespect -respect really has nothing to do with titles, and addressing Finnish teachers by their first names is a continuation of using first names only in Finland in general -have you heard of "sinunkaupat?" My college students in the U.S. call me by my first name, and I rarely encounter any disrespect from them.

A few other random thoughts in response to Eduardo's comments...

1. Italy has a lower birth rate than Finland, but their child mortality rate is much higher.
2. The PISA tests are not available beforehand.
3. So because a country is small, its citizens need to learn more about world affairs? Shouldn't it be the opposite -since the U.S. meddles so much in international affairs, shouldn't its citizens know what they are meddling in? Sounds like U.S. arrogance.
4. As someone previously mentioned -low language skills equal low skilled labor around the world.

And finally, it is common knowledge that it is better to get your primary and secondary education, and bachelor's degree in Europe (and evidently best to do so in Finland), and to get your master's and above degrees in the U.S. -there are multiple reasons for the supremacy of graduate education in the U.S., for which I dont' want to take more space here.

"would you Finnish commenters say that's a good example of Finnish character and humor?"

In a way, yes. But I think it is more an example of Kaurismäki´s character and humour. If you like The Match Factory Girl you will also like The Man without a Past. And your husband would get it even less.

Their language is "obtuse"? Doesn't obtuse mean stupid?

I think what matters just as much as the quality of the teachers is the quality of the students (and parents of the students). It's really lame to constantly blame energetic, idealistic, motivated, well-intentioned teachers in the US for their failing students, when it's really the students' and their parents' own fault. Yes, I taught in an inner city school and learned the hard way: it's always, always, always the teacher's fault, at least to educrats.

Quoting Bob: "Lucian and I have never had such intense and immediate feeback."

Why am I not surprised? I knew this blog would reach similar proportions as the famous (well, at least in Finland it is famous) "Conan O'Brian hates my home land" incident. We Finns started to send postcards to poor Conan well before he had made any insults on Finland, which of course prompted him to insult us for this stupidity (and rightly so). This was reported in the Finnish media with certain pride, and the episode showing Conan insult Finland was rerun a couple of times. Just to make sure everybody gets it right: We were so proud. A wonderful example of our low self esteem. We are obsessed to know what others think about us. For this very same reason, your trip to Finland was widely publicized in advance in the Finnish media.

Take a look at the old joke, in which a Finn, a Frenchman and an American run into an elephant in a safari: http://dbgw.finlit.fi/fili/bff/204/freshairandflowers204.htm
This pretty much sums up the reason why you will get tons of feedback from Finns during your trip.

About the PISA survey: Just last week somebody actually studied the survey in detail and figured out why Finland did so well. It is because the worst-performing schoolchildren in Finland did much better than the worst-performing kids elsewhere. This raised our average and made us score highest. The best and brightest kids in Finland were behind the best and brightest of many other countries. In fact, just today it was reported that Finnish (probably hard science) universities do not share the optimistic hype of PISA results; supposedly the freshmen need remedial tuition before they can start university-level (science) courses.

Put another way - we care about the losers, not about the winners. This mentality applies to the whole society, not just the educational system. Just as Finns envy successful businessmen (can you name any other country in which you can purchase your neighbor's gross income from the previous fiscal year as a text message to your cell phone?) we would envy elite schools, if they only existed. Hence any debate about the possibility to found private (=elite) schools in Finland quickly dies away.

Instead of showcasing Linus Torvalds as a witness of our superb education system, I would rather ask "how on earth did Linus survive the Finnish public school system without becoming just another Joe Average?" Well, maybe then it is no coincidence that the high school that Linus attended ranks among top 10 (out of 441) every year, requires top grades to get in and is therefore considered an elite school although public. Linus did not go to an average school.

Mr. Incredible's comment (in the movie Incredibles) that schools "keep inventing new ways to celebrate mediocrity" is so true in Finland that it makes me wonder if Dash goes to school here.

And by the way, I fully agree with "Love the Finns" that the Finnish university education is subpar. How did the University of Helsinki produce someone like Linus Torvalds? Well - I do not know Linus personally - but like many science students in Finland he probably skipped all lectures (physical presence is not required for most university courses), studied on his own and passed the exams.

To end on a more positive note... yes, there are many good aspects in the Finnish system. We are so darn equal and homogeneous that even 20% unemployment rate in some urban areas does not cause civil unrest.

As an eight year old, I spent six influential months in Finland [1980], and assimilated [as best as an American can] into my second grade class in Turku. Some indelible impressions:

1) Cultural/Institutional gratitude - we were required to bow/curtsy to our teacher after a meal. I was told this was a legacy from famines in previous generations, it reminded me to never take anything [including food] for granted. From it I learned respect for authority, history, philosophy.

2) Fortitude - Regardless of the minus 40F winter, we still bundled up and traipsed outside to practice our cross-country skiing and ice-skating skills at the adjoining rink. We were expected to lace our own skates despite numb fingers and clumsy mittens. From this, I gleaned the importance of self-reliance, endurance and athletic prowess... remember, this is the year the Soviets lost to the US in Olympic Hockey, I was an eight-year-old ambassador, and felt compelled to hold up my end of the bargain.

3) Pacifism - Schoolyard tackle-smear completely muddled all of my classmates. This was a school full of kids whose media influence consisted of Moomintrolls, not Superfriends and Captain Caveman. The chaotic violence of American recess was completely lost in translation. Consider being scolded by your male classmates for playing too rough... and you are an American girl!

I would like to comment on the quote "In the schools, there is absolutely no respect for teachers. They call their teachers by their first names or they make up degrading nicknames for them and say it to their face."

In our culture, we address each other by our first names. This is not a sign of lack of respect. If a student suddenly came in and called the teacher Mr. so and so, the teacher would probably be pretty surprised!

My husband, and American currently teaching in America, taught in Finland for close to 10 years, in grades from Kindergarten all the way up to University. He always tells everyone who cares to listen how extraordinarily respectful and motivated Finnish students are, and how much the respect the Teacher enjoys in the the Finnish Society.

I do of course not know Eduardo's particular situation, but from his very negative comments it really sounds to me like Eduardo has not really managed to, or may be doesn't even wish to, understand and integrate into the Finnish culture. I hope that his experience will change and that he will be able to enjoy his Finnish experience. Having lived in several countries and cultures (in Europe, America, the Caribbean and Asia) myself, I can with confidence say that happiness and quality of life in a culture foreign to your own directly correlates with your won willingness to learn, accept and integrate.

"At the age of 14, they are expected to decide if they will do highschool(who can go on to university) or vocational school(to learn a trade like plumbing, janitor, road repair, truck driving,super blue collar work)."

Actually, nowadays it is possible to go to university even if you aren't a high school graduate but have gone through vocational school instead. Sure, it requires good grades and success in the entrance exams, but it is possible.

I have children who have gone to Universities in France and Germany (one year each for two of them). Also one of my children went to a German Public school from Kindegarten through grade 13 and she received her Abitur.
My impressions are that European schools through high school are clearly superior to those in the US. However, US Universities are just as clearly superior to European Universities. This may also apply to Finland and would explain many of the comments.

The graphic gave median salaries for several jobs in Finland. I had the comparable data at hand for the USA, so I cooked up the following chart giving salary, job, and (for the US), year-round workers.

Comparison of salaries:
Finland:
$28,344 Nursery School Teacher
$37,932 Grade School Teacher
$45,216 Upper Secondary/Vocational Teacher
$32,364 Nurse
$32,592 Bus Driver
$82,032 Physician

USA:
$15,569 Teacher Assistants (186,925)
$17,614 Preschool and Kindergarten Teachers (247,440)
$30,587 Other Teachers and Instructors (181,450)
$35,129 Special Education Teachers (136,870)
$36,216 Elementary and Middle School Teachers (2,450,940)
$36,866 Librarians (100,475)
$38,251 Secondary School Teachers (630,680)
$46,698 Postsecondary Teachers (745,475)
$27,265 Bus Drivers (202,375)
$27,395 Licensed Practical and Vocational Nurses (375,065)
$42,562 Registered Nurses (1,439,915)
$124,125 Physicians and Surgeons (523,550)

(Finland data from Washington Post graphic - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2005/05/24/GR2005052400072.html ; USA data from US Census' Earnings by Occupation and Education survey - http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/earnings/call2usboth.html.

I once met a Finn in Barcelona. I'm English and at the time I spoke no Spanish. I had got myself in a mess with pre-booked university accomodation and couldn't communicate with the Spanish secretary who was trying to explain to me that I needed to pay a deposit that I didn't know about. The Finn sorted out my problem for me in Spanish while explaining what was going on to me in English. That may not seem so special, but the point is that the whole time I thought he was from California. Really. His English was so good that I, a native speaker, couldn't tell he wasn't. I later found out that he actually spoke eight or nine languages, that he could discuss Shakespeare in English, Einstein in German and Picasso in Spanish. I was humbled.

I lived in Helsinki from 1970-1974 and taught English at a private language school. Since returning to the U.S. I have taught middle school in the public school system here. I sometimes think it would have been better to have stayed in Finland where our son would have had a far superior education as well as learning three languages.
My husband is from Finland and his depth of knowledge always amazes me. I love the country, the people, the nature and the education it gave me while I was there.

How wonderful it is when a nation can invest in its children. If we did not have to spend annually $500+ billion on defense and national security and being the world's bully, we could have so much more. The "national security state" is an expensive proposition, and everything else, from health care to education, goes down the tubes when this is the goal of a people and a country, which is what has happened in America. The Finns, Swedes, Canandians, and everyboy else in the first world, except us, have their act so much more together.

Duhhh. Why are Finnish schools so good? Finland is a monoculture. 99% of the country is white Scandinavian, same culture, same values, same parents, same teachers, same religion, same motivation, same, same, same, same, same, same same same samesamesamesame.

Boring, in a word, to multiculturalists. Now take Sweden, which has Malmo, a majority minority city that is in utter chaos. Gang rape of Swedish girls by minority boys and men who are taught that Swedish (or German, or English , or Dutch or whatever) girls are whores. Police won't go there, nor firefighters, nor postmen, window fixers, car towers, nor any other white folks with an ounce of brains in their head. Violent crime? You bet! Lousy schools? You bet! Exciting? You bet! Multicultural? With a vengeance!

Malmoites have radically different attitudes toward work, religion, women, sex, morality, reading, education, in short,radically different beliefs about everything that makes up a cohesive culture.

So you can find crappy schools right next to Finland in Sweden. But you can also find Finlandy schools right here in America.

If you want to see a mini-Finland in America, go to the Dakotas and see what their schools are like. Look at their national test scores, see how little violence there is. White monoculture is good for schools and bad for exciting multiculturalism.

So ask youself, how long is the Washington Post going to ignore the obvious, the painfully obvious? How long until their intrepid reporters notice the strange, strange Finland phenomenon: no non-whites, no non-Scandinavians and no immigration. How long until they ask themselves whether that has some effect? How long? Forever. They will never notice it. They cannot. It is leftist blasphemy.

They will just walk through classroom after classroom of white blonds with nary a black person or brown person or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jain, or in sight, AND THEY WILL NEVER SEE IT! They ill not say it is "hypersegregated". They will not say it is "anti-multiculturalist". They will say nothing bad at all. They will just not see it.

"Finnish commenters say that's a good example of Finnish character and humor?"

More like caricature.

Quoting Finn:
"Put another way - we care about the losers, not about the winners."

That's true to some extent. We should take better care of the talented.

"A wonderful example of our low self esteem."

As was your writing as well. When someone tells we do something right, it doesn't take long before some Finns that (always) feel inferior to other countries start putting us down. (Ending on a obligatory positive note, of course, to maintain the illusion of objectiveness).

"The Finns, Swedes, Canandians, and everyboy else in the first world, except us, have their act so much more together."

Perhaps they have the ability to do such a thing because we provide for their defense. If the Swedes, Finns and Canadians woke up one day and there was no America armed to the hilt, they'd have to do it themselves, and this would cost them money! There's also the fact that Americans subsidize most of the research money for new drugs by paying exorbitant drug prices. European health care would crumble if they had to pay enough money to actually fund drug research instead of letting the Americans do it.

Joe Doaks, you told the dirty little secret! Shhhhhhhh! Must keep quiet!

"Perhaps they have the ability to do such a thing because we provide for their defense. If the Swedes, Finns and Canadians woke up one day and there was no America armed to the hilt, they'd have to do it themselves, and this would cost them money!"

Hmmm. Funny, I haven't seen american troops around. I'm not sure if marie is ignorant or that she thinks USA as a world police takes care of our defence.
You know we're not part of NATO, you know we have our own army, you know we never got any help defending our country (not that I was there in the trenches ;) from USA???

"Duhhh. Why are Finnish schools so good? Finland is a monoculture."

There was a school from eastern Helsinki in that PISA survey. I wish I remembered the name of it, but I don´t. But it is a school where half of the students are from immigrant families. They have "mother tongue teaching" in over dozen languages.

That school did no worse in PISA than "monoculture" schools.

Defense is not simply about NATO membership. During the Cold War, Sweden's defense strategy relied for decades on the United States to come to help them would the need arise. There was no official agreement. Today, Sweden openly states that the country couldn't be defended if such a need would arise. Finland claims otherwise but the presence of NATO countries in the neighborhood has always been the stabilizing factor that Finland's defense has counted on. The very existence of NATO has been essential for Finland (and Sweden), even if having an own army (and not having US soldiers) has been the preferred strategy.

""The teachers did it" is pretty much the universal answer to questions about Finland's educational successes."

If you ask the teachers.

"So this is one big reason for why they do so well in school. In the schools, there is absolutely no respect for teachers."
and then:
"Many of the finnish teachers that I know go off and get drunk just as much as any teachers I know in Los Angeles. Actually, since getting drunk at a party in finland is almost "required", I am sure Finnish teachers are drunk more often."

And then they come to work with a hang-over and angry to all those kids who disrupt their day.
...Wonder why there is no respect ?

Those who study to be teachers, are known for their like of (too much) alcohol. The profession atracts that kind of people.

"Those who study to be teachers, are known for their like of (too much) alcohol. The profession atracts that kind of people."

Holy moses! Compared to let's say engineering students teachers are angels!

Silly post, silly...

I find it really funny we're talking about education and universities theres an advertisement selling online degrees on the page.

Finns' regard foreign degrees sometimes with suspect: you can "buy" them...

Hi and thanks for the nice and surprisingly accurate articles!

I've been recently thinking about this old story of "low self esteem" and I think it is generally a false conclusion of a real phenomenon. Finns are highly interested in other nations' observations, because they truly want to know, what is the wild story of the day. There is a long history of utterly crazy, absurd stories told about Finland. Many people in other countries actually believe that polar bears are walking by the Helsinki railway station. Another common mistake is to classify Finland as "another poor communist country". This is either comical or insulting as Finland has been an exceptionally democratic country throughout its history. It has been close to Soviet Union, true, but only geographically. The communist party is legal and active but it never gets more than an odd vote. Of course, our democracy is of the "European type" where we actually count the votes and the candidate who gets the majority wins. It may sound strange but we like it that way. Try to understand.

So, many people have absolutely no clue even about the existence of Finland. I've often heard the comment "Finland? Which State?" True story. Therefore we want to know, what these people are told. Such a confusion could never happen with the US. American lifestyle is coming to our living room every single day. Dozens of American TV shows provide are shown weekly. We may have our own misunderstandings about finer aspects of american life, but at least everyone has some idea.

I really don't believe that people have "low self esteem". They are simply curious, because there are both accurate but also incredibly clueless stories floating around. I would call it curiosity, not any desperate lack of attention. At least that's why I'm reading your articles right now. My self esteem won't be affected. Actually I'm using these articles to make my conclusions about the skill of foreign reporters...

Well, thanks again. Keep up the good work. Maybe some day there is a Finnish show on some American TV channel and we don't have to clear up the polar bear story every time.

I'd like to Comment on Marie's post:

"...if the ...woke up one day and there was no America armed to the hilt, they'd have to do it themselves,.."

and

"Americans subsidize most of the research money for new drugs by paying exorbitant drug prices. European health care would crumble if they had to pay enough money to actually fund drug research instead of letting the Americans do it."

Your comments are not based on facts. I do not doubt that this is what you belive, because we tend to read that type of assumptions even in media these days, and unfortunatly it seems that there is a segment in society that either does not remember history or never had the opportunity to learn it, and/or who will not care to reserach the facts before forming opinions.

First of all, the Amrican's never came to the aid of Finland, when we were in a bind. Read history and study defense, and you will be amazed at how this small country , which is the only piece of land separating Russia from what once was the only icefree harbor (please contemplate the strategic importance of this)and that has the longest European border with Russia, fought off the Russians , never was occupied them, and to this day is an independent democratic western republic!

Today America would never come to the rescue of Finland. We have no oil. I will not go into the intricacies of our defence and history here, but the simplified gist of it is that in our foreign policy we choose diplomacy over war, we believe in stronly defending our own borders, but will not venure beyond them to foreign lands. We do take part of the clean-up of mess left behind by other's though, by a strong peace keeping precense thru the UN.

Secondly, Finland is known for innovation and reserach in the medical field and many of the benefits of these Finnish innovations we are enjoying here the in the US. The US consumer is not paying for the Finnish drugs. On the contrary, Finns are very much paying for their own drugs, the research that goes into them and high quality of other medical services thru their taxes. Of course there is a benefit of research and innovation doen in all nations in the world. The US is benfiting from this just as is Finland and all other nations. This is as it should be.

Why is it that some American's get so upset when there is a suggestion that some other Nation might be doing something right? One would think that it would be more beneficial to look at this small nation instead and say "hey, maybe there is something we can learn from these guys that will make us even better?!"

Finland is able to invest in schools because she is a small and homogeneous country. We are not a federal country, like the US, and we do not have any real minorities. In America, the whites often oppose increased taxes to pay for schools that are mainly black, or latino.

As Finland becomes wealthier and the population ages, more and more immigrants stream in. Whether the old white folk will be ready to pay for the quality schooling of young colored immigrant kids is an open
question.

Was Finland really so poor when compared to other countries ?

It started to develop already under russian rule and continued that when it got its independence from Lenin.

Finland does not invest lots in schools.

Instead of fashionable bull about schools, or some philosopher who nobody really has heard about or could care less about, why not instead go see a "lähiö" - best known is Hervanta in tampere. It looks like the kind of place the other half lives - but is the best of them. There are such in all town, yet only in tampere the people living there are happy and talkative.
http://www.hervanta.fi/ie/index.html

Or talk to relatives of veikko hursti. Or a EU bread line where they give out food for the poor. They say, in Helsinki, everybody who queues gets food - smaller town, you need to be approved by the social office nazis.

They used to have lots of tales in the media of how the poor are very poor in america here in finland and probably most of europe, at least until russia fell.
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/print/1101979458230

Marie: As others have noted, Finland has been, and is, able to defend itself. But since we are a small country, we concentrate on taking care of our own business, instead of meddling with everyone else's... I've has a couple of interesting conversations on this topic with my friends from Texas. Still, it's not a bad thing for us to be a nation that has a long border with a non-EU country.

Samppa: I come from a family of teachers in three generations, and I have been close to the teacher community for my whole life. I really haven't seen the alcohol issue you mentioned, but actually the opposite. It seems that the teachers drink less than people do in average in Finland. I don't have facts, though; only my own observations.

To "Yet Another Finn": they actually showed Finnish miniserie "Raid" in TV during last couple months and now they are showing the actual movie in theater next month ;) But then again, I have no idea how many Americans really saw that one.. But as a Finn I was surprised in agood way when I noticed it!

The slideshow of schools was great. No Somalis or Kurdis. Show us a slideshow of the Finnish army with no women. Then you are doing a better job than the Finnish media.

"Show us a slideshow of the Finnish army with no women."

I don't think army allows pics like that.

To Maria.
I could not watch "Raid". And I like the Raid-books. The series and the movie... not so good.

"It started to develop already under russian rule and continued that when it got its independence from Lenin."

That sort of delusion requires a comment. Includes a reference to the education system.

That's another lie from the days of the Soviet Union. After Soviet Union failed to gain full military victory over Finland, it did never controlled Finland, but did had a strong influence. Sure they used a lot of energy for trying to flip Finland in to socialism in 50's and 70's.
Some usefull idiots actually thought that SU should be supported, and failed to see through the doubletalk. When they spoke of peace, they ment war. When they wanted to trade something, they were actually demanding something. Some people used their SU contacts to gain personal benefits, and the politicians used their connections without a shame. These lead to some coloring of the history. Unfortunately, those who studied their history in the early years of the new Finnish elementary school system back in -70s and early 80s, had to study from the government-approved school books. And the government had a policy not to upset Soviet Union. And, curiously, the elementary school system was copied from the East-Germany in the beginning of the 70's. In a few certain schools (Pirkkala), even the brain-washing policy was copied, but soon dropped as we approached the 80's.

For the independence: Russians gave nothing. It was taken. First legally (late 1917). The independence was first recognized by Sweden, weeks ahead of Russia, which hoped Finland to flip into a Soviet State as the russian troops infiltrated by communists agitators begun to assist finnish communists (1918) in their revolution. In the end, the revolt was estinguished and also the Russian forces were kicked out. Lot of Russian immigrants remained in Finland as they fled from the young soviet tyranny, including the majority of the jews in Finland.

Many people seem to be under the impression that only white, Finnish people live in Finland, and that the Finnish welfare state will crumble as soon as there are some non-white people living in Finland. At the same time, these people seem to be accusing Finns of being racist.

I live in Kallio, Helsinki, which is much more multicultural than any of the areas in the U.S that I have lived in (Washington state, Ohio, and New York state). I see much less racism than I saw in the United States, many more interracial couples, and genuine, every day respect between ordinary people, regardless of their ethnic origin. Our kids go to a multicultural school - here the schools really are that, and not ghettoized by race like in the U.S.

It threatens many Americans to think that other countries may do something better. It saddens me when the response to new information is anger and shutting down, and refusing to learn or understand.

Of course, that is only damaging to the Americans themselves, leaving the rest of the world to move on and develop further.

Eduardo - I understand that you are very frustrated about not finding a job you like, so are many unemployed Finns and Americans with bachelors and masters degrees - but please stop making things up. You are only making yourself look bad.

"I live in Kallio, Helsinki, which is much more multicultural than any of the areas in the U.S that I have lived in (Washington state, Ohio, and New York state)."

So how far out in the countryside were you??

"If you want to see a mini-Finland in America, go to the Dakotas and see what their schools are like. Look at their national test scores, see how little violence there is. White monoculture is good for schools and bad for exciting multiculturalism."

Look at some of the ethnic groups in the U.S. that kick the white kids' ass - The asians generally do extremely well in classes and tests, same goes for the Indians, same goes for the Jews, same goes for any exchange students....if it wasn't for these multiculturals coming to the states, our school performance and test scores would be even lower! ...oh, and these groups aren't the ones being violent either.

- Phil
http://www.finlandforthought.net

So, Mordechai, you lived in "Kekkoslovakia" as a kid as well? ;)

"Post Army Pics with no women"

... oh, you mean like these?
http://www.finlandforthought.net/temp/army1.jpg

I think the army doesn't allow cameras in the barracks for a reason.

Concerning PISA-survey. Finland's Swedish speaking schools got lower points and thus made Finland's results lower if only Finnish speaking schools had been in the survey.

That makes the Finnish speakers to say that the quotas for the Swedish speakers in the higher education must be humiliating for them in terms of the historical background.

They had not access to a higher education without quotas.

Swedish speaking University of Abo Academi for example arranges separate Swedish language "tests" for the graduates from Finnish colleges even if the Finnish speaking aplicant had got best scores in the entrance-tentament which takes place in Swedish from the Swedish langauge books;)

Similar system existed in the Deep South of USA in order to keep the Afroamericans out of higher "white only" education.

Abo Academi uses the language test in Swedish as a similar tool. If there is "too many" Finnish speaking persons passing the entrance tentaments the level of Swedish langauge test will be strengthened to a degree that members of "lower caste" don't occpy the entire Swedish university.

The aim is that 25 % of the students were Finnish speakers allthought Finnish speaking Finns are over 90 % of the population. That is Scandinavian style caste system.

As mentioned the Finns are shy,speacially Finland-Swedes, who hardly like to tell about these "intern" arangements in details.

what's this about teachers and problems with alcohol?!?!? I am a young teacher and I do not drink much at all. So is my mother who drinks even less than I do. my mother-in-law is a teacher and she enjoyes some wine occasionally. some of my colleagues may or may not drink, I don't know - but it certainly does not show if they do drink. some Finns drink a lot, some none at all. the further North you go on the Northern hemispere, the more people tend to drink because of the darkness of the winters.

I'm studying computer science In Helsinki University, and thought I'd comment on one post. I don't have alot of personal experience of studying in university elsewhere, but I did do about 50 credits of Business Administration in Beirut (in a university affiliated with an american university).

"In all of my classes, there was only a final exam for each class."

Just about all courses I've done untill now, we are required to attend a weekly "lab" for exercises. This is not required if you take the separate final test (but is expected if you take the normal final test). There are also courses (mainly math) where you have a midterm exam.

This test covers the whole subject that we have been studying, so as long as it's a "small" course, I don't see any reason to do it otherwise. The only advantage I can think of with a weekly exam, is keeping students on their toes (so they don't leave a majority of the studying for the end of the course).

"Rarely did most students ever show up to lectures."

I have never understood the concept of required attendance in a school where most people are adults. I like the way that the choice is left to the student himself. Personally I work fulltime in the same field that I'm studying, and have a family. I would feel silly if I had to attend all the lectures on a topic I allready know.

"Copies of old exams are available in the department offices. And the new exams tend to repeat the same questions as the old ones."

Sure, if you go through enough old tests, they are bound to include questions on the same topics (or even the same questions) as the new test. This is because (atleast in my case) going through 5-6 old tests goes through the whole subject at hand. Usually there are "hands on excersises" that can help you study for a test, but I've never been on a course where there would be enough of them. That's the main reason I do alot of the old tests too.

If you know the whole topic you have studied, sure you will succeed in the test.

Comparing to studying in Beirut, I've noticed a few differances. There we had too much things that had to be learned by heart. Here it seems that the school system preferes understanding rather then learning something. This suits me well, as I have a very bad memory.

Eduardo,
Please, pack your bags and leave ASAP! Don't keep California waiting for you any longer. Finland will be a better place without you.
Your writing illustrates that you were educated in the USA.

"A visit to Severinkangas's eighth-grade class demonstrates that her students can all read and speak in English, a language that has virtually nothing in common with the Finns' obtuse and complex native tongue."
Why do you call Finnish language obtuse?
For us it is no more obtuse than English language is for e.g. Americans or the English tongue for us. Or are you hinting that you do not understand Finnish, which may not all be the language's fault.

"Why do you call Finnish language obtuse?
For us it is no more obtuse than English language is for e.g. Americans or the English tongue for us. Or are you hinting that you do not understand Finnish, which may not all be the language's fault."

It's likely that "obtuse" was a careless error. "Abstruse" would have made more sense.

"Obtuse" means "difficult to understand because of a lack of precision or clarity".

"Abstruse" means "difficult for an outsider to understand".

My, my, my....who would have thought that little Suomi could illicite so much pride, debate and venom. As a teacher, who just happens to be Finnish-Canadian and who does not get plastered every night after work, I've tried to keep up on educational advances. My fear is that my provincial gov't is currently moving towards an American style system (cash incentives, standardized testing) and not towards the Finnish system. Seems some parts of Canada are moving backwards and not forwards. Just watch our rank drop if this system comes into place.

I talked to a couple of Finnish 9th graders who had learned at school that in some American schools creationism is taught instead of, or as an equal to, evolution theory. I asked them what they thought about that, and they said it was great. "The more stupid Americans become, the easier it is for everyone else to take over the world." They clarified they meant getting good jobs and "just being smarter".

I know that it's not clever to continue the language arguement, but when I see statements like this...

---
"Swedish speaking University of Abo Academi for example arranges separate Swedish language "tests" for the graduates from Finnish colleges even if the Finnish speaking aplicant had got best scores in the entrance-tentament which takes place in Swedish from the Swedish langauge books;)

Similar system existed in the Deep South of USA in order to keep the Afroamericans out of higher "white only" education.

Abo Academi uses the language test in Swedish as a similar tool. If there is "too many" Finnish speaking persons passing the entrance tentaments the level of Swedish langauge test will be strengthened to a degree that members of "lower caste" don't occpy the entire Swedish university."
---

Doesn't the Swedish language test for Åbo Akademi take place _before_ the entrance examination? You go to the language test to be permitted to go any actual entrance exam afterwards, in the same year or in the future? I think.

I am a Finnish-speaking high school graduate and I went to the Swedish language test this year. I got a score good enough to let me apply to any of the faculties. And the _average_ applicant got a score good enough to let them apply to the natural science kind of faculties. So the test can't have been overwhelmingly hard. (And why would a real "fennomaani" want to go to ÅA anyway? I've always thought that it's not exactly an elite university.)

Seems Eduardo was correct in many of his observations

Just a comment about the lack of really good universities in Finland.
I don't know about other fields, but Finland, Sweden and the Netherlands together produce AS MUCH good-quality medical research as the US, with a fraction of the number of doctors, Ph.D. students and labs as there are in the US...

I am a new reader to this blog and have never visited Finland, and having skimmed through some of the comments to the entries I would be interested in learning how the debate about Swedish language instruction shows in everyday life in Finland. Are there street protests? Do people remove their children from Swedish courses, like some American parents remove their kids from biology classes with evolution science? Is there violence between the two ethnic groups?

In response to the comment above by Ann.

As a Finn, I find your questions amusingly absurd. There is no violence between Finland's Swedes and the Finns, there are no street protests and hardly anyone would think of removing their children from Swedish class.

Finland's Swedes make up 6% of the population and are generally wealthy due to inherited wealth and connections. Most belong to the upper-middle class and are educated. The 6% have influence in society well over their "quota".

Dear Inkeri, my questions were based on what I was reading in these comments, esp. in the blog entries about education. It seems there is a great deal of hostility and some of the posters were making comparisons between abolitionism and racism in the United States, back when schools were segregated. I am a little offended that you are calling me absurd, when such comparisons readily bring to mind the civil rights movement and violence and protests that are part of our history. If these comparisons are completely without basis in reality, then surely it is not I who am being absurd but the posters who feel that Finnish is to Swedish as African-American is to white American?

Ann,
Like has been brought up by others, those ranting about swedish elites stomping on the rights of finnish majority are bigots. Taking them too seriously is like thinking the KKK would be a major force in USA.

Unfortunately it is the nature of internet that it easily brings out the extremists on all arguments, while the moderate, intelligent people prefer to rather stay silent than get dragged in to debating with fanatics. I'm sure this phenomenon is familiar to you, in a form or another. I'm ashamed that these people, on both sides of the flaming, give a such bad picture of our nation.

Most of the fervent posting has been made by finnish-speaking extremists, most likely only one or maybe two persons masquerading as many. However, to be neutral, there are extremists on the swedish-speaking side too, whose opinions fuel the flames of the fanatics on the opposite side.

Overall the situation is very peaceful. I have never heard of any violent confrontations or any real 'racism' either.

Well, what about my own opinion?
I think it is foolish that kids are forced to study swedish - why not let them choose what language to learn, besides english? Learning english should be necessary, as it is the only real 'common language' in the world right now, whether you like it or not. The anglosaxon culture is a such dominant force.

However, I think Finland should stay bilingual and care for the rights of her minorities. I'm sure plenty of people would still continue to study swedish.

It is true that the Swedish Peoples Party is in every goverment, no matter what other parties form it. This is very simply caused by nature of their politics - all they demand is that kids need to learn swedish in schools and that the minority they represent keep their rights. Unfortunately this means that the compulsive swedish will stay in the finnish school system for years to come. All in all, there is very little difference between swedish- and finnish-speaking finns.

I wonder what the extremists will do once the russian minority starts getting so large, that it should be given the same rights as to the swedish-speaking minority? Maybe the extremists of both sides of the old language debate will unite in their xenophobia towards russians.

Ann,
I'll continue my previous post-

To understand the hatred of the extremists who preach against the swedish-speaking minority...and the arrogance of the extremists on the swedish-speaking side.. You have to understand the history of Finland.

Finland was conquered and colonized by Swedish king in the medieval times, claiming it to be a crusade - the reasons were really greed and geopolitics. After that, Finland was part of Sweden for hundreds of years, untill the defeat of Napoleon. During that time, swedish nobles ruled the land and to advance in life, such as succeed as a trader or become a bureacrat or an officer, finns needed to speak swedish.

This has left certian resentment towards swedes and the swedish-speaking finns in the small group of extremists. It is hard to understand unless you come from a country that has been colonized by outside forces for a long time. I'm sure African or South American people could understand it. Are people in southern states of the US still bitter to "Yankees" about Civil War? I'm sure there must be a handful of people who are? Well, that is pretty much the case with swedish-speaking finns and the extremists who think they are the source of all evil. Exchange swedish-speaking finn with yankee and you got the picture.

Dear Ann,

in the early parts of the 20th century in Finland there was a period of civil unrest and great open hostility between the Finnish and Swedish-speaking camps. After Finland gained its independence from Russia in 1917, (followed by a Civil War between leftists and the right) movements that aimed to strengthen the Finnish identity by obliterating its old ruling classes came into force. People who were suspected of being Russian-minded were ousted out of the country (or, in the case of the lost leftists in the Civil War, imprisoned and executed.) Swedish-speaking people felt the pressure to forego their Swedish surnames and change them to Finnish ones, parents to stop speaking Swedish to their children etc.
This is partly why the Swedish-speaking part of the population is still so keen on holding on to their rights as a minority language.
Because of these rights and a lingering sense of upperclass, many Finns resent them. (Ironically, the Swedish-speaking Finns and Finnish extremists shared sides in the Civil War, both were against Russia and Socialism.)
In reality, the Finnish-Swedish population is largely stemming from regular farmfolk that settled on the coasts in Finland hundreds if not a thousand years ago, and the small Swedish urban upperclass is really a minority within a minority. It's enough though to keep the myth alive.
Personally, as a Finn-Swede, I've been called names and teased for speaking Swedish, but have also enjoyed the right to be educated in both my native tongues. Growing up, we certainly were a part of lower middle-class.
I think the comparison to the situation in America would be more along the lines of comparing the Finn-Swedes to the Jews in America rather than to the Civil Movement and white supremists. At least the old myth of Jews controlling the market, banks, the universities, Hollywood, is similar to the myth of Finn-Swedes still being in control in Finland. My family certainly never was, I have no inheritance in store, no old nobility hidden in my closet :)

Oh, and still to answer your question, Ann, the debate about Swedish language instruction is one that goes on in the Parliament and the op-ed articles and write-ins to newspapers, not in open street demonstrations. It's very civil, part from the bathroom graffiti in university stalls which are very anti-Swedish. Mostly, the general dislike of the Swedish instruction in schools come across as an apathy to learning it (a lack of motivation), and when possible, postponing Swedish-language instruction in favor of a more useful language.
The Swedish Folk Party has successfully blocked any attempts to decrease on the Swedish-language instruction, along the "slippery slope" logic, don't give in an inch or you'll loose the whole cause. The motivation is in Swedish-speaking people having the right to be served in their native language in the public facilities of courts, hospitals etc. , forcing Finns who work in these to pass a rudimentary test in Swedish. In practice, most Swedish-speaking Finns forego this right, and most Finns would rather speak English than Swedish if given the choice..

First of all, I have to tell you how much I enjoy your diary which I discovered only yesterday.
I am finn who lived abroad for 15 years and returned because I wanted my daughter to have same kind of childhood and education as I did. Last night I discussed with a friend of mine, who has same kind of backgroung as I, about women in Finland, education, kids nowadays etc., due reading this diary.
She confirmed one thing I've been talking a lot lately, namely my opion of the place we live (Toijala, small place near Tampere) and what a good place it is to live if you have kids. (lived somewhere else for awhile and returned here, main reason being the pressure from my daughter).
Ok, kindergartens and schools are excellent even compared with finnish standards, but one thing I really would like to point out. The youngsters themselves.
Now that we have lots of teenagers with various backgrounds hanging about the house, I cannot but be impressed how they are, and believe that when they are my age, finnish society will be rather different in positive way. More open, social and tolerant.
Couple of years ago a youth center was opened and it is unbelievable what kinds of activities kids themselves have arranged with the support of municipal. From pancakes and homework afternoons to few days camps. Center is open every evening until 8 and they figure out all kinds of things to do.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is, that even though the standard of teachers is high and the system in general good, I still think it is the kids themselves. Compared with many countiries finns learn to be quite independent from early age on.
Also, that it would be worth while to get in contact with average finnish kids, not specially talented or anything like that.

Concerning PISA-survey and "mono-culture."

There were minority schools in the random sample! They did worse results than other schools.

Therefore there are quotas for the Swedish minority at the higher education (university)level. In terms of PISA-survey they are still needed long time ahead.

As fas as I know there are quotas for the minorities in the States,too? So they have to be familiar for the Americans what it is all about.

Observer claimed that Finland was conquered and colonized by a Swedish king in the medieval times. We all learn in our history classes that the king, St. Eric, led a crusade in 1155, where the English-born bishop St. Henry participated, in order to baptize the Finnish nation. Yet historians have debated this conclusion. The crusade is a legend of the Catholic Church but some historians have argued that Finland was not colonized in one fell swoop. The process of Finland becoming a part of Sweden during the Medieval times can have been far more peaceful and gradual (even a natural result of close trade relations). That the crusade really happened can't be proven as a fact. Whereas I think that Swedish historians generally agree that St. Eric existed and was slain by the Danes in 1160, it is much less clear whether the crusade to Finland ever happened and whether St. Henry (Catholic patron saint of Finland) ever even existed or was slain by a Finnish peasant in 1156. Much of such early history of Sweden is the stuff of legends written a couple of centuries later and Medieval writers often had other objectives than accuracy.

It is always interesting to read what Finns think they know about America and the American educational system in particular.

A few comments:

1- Each state in the U.S. has its own educational system. In some states, each school district sets its own standards. Some schools in the U.S. are good schools and some are poor schools. To say that a person knows all about the American school system after living even 20 years in the U.S. is a very funny idea. Americans can learn much from the Finnish school system but it important to remember that not all ideas and methods are easily taken from one culture to another. I would hope the Finns feel the same way.

2- I have been to Finland three times (seven weeks total) and one of the things I have noticed is the large number of book stores all over the country. I have spent a lot of time and money buying Finnish history books in these stores. I think it is a great part of the Finnish educational culture and hope you write a story about it!

3- Thank you for the articles!!!

Just to be precise...

Actually there was quite a street protest against "the other domestic language test" (Swedish for Finnish speakers; Finnish for Sweedish speakers), which was a compulsory part of the high school graduation exams (aka the Finnish Matriculation Examination) (except in some high schools where the government tested how a more liberal examination would work). I guess the protesters were Finnish speakers, and I remember being there protesting, too...
But I believe in organizing the Swedish speakers' health care etc. in their mothertongue, and unless someone discovers how to do it without teaching Swedish in our schools, I am pro- Swedish lessons.

Nowadays (from this year on) the other domestic language test is optional, and in the following years the examination is to undergo other radical changes not related to the language debate.

(From the website of the Finnish Broadcasting Corproation:
About the protests, in Finnish: http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/haku.php?action=page&id=162669&search=lukiolaisten
About removing the Swedish test, in English: http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/haku.php?action=page&id=167897&search=matriculation )

I've never heard of any parents removing their kids from Swedish classes, though. And Ann, I think it's really great that you're interested in Finland! :) If something makes you wonder, go on asking questions!

By "removing the Swedish test" I naturally meant "removing 'the Swedish test for Finnish speakers' and 'the Finnish test for Swedish speakers'". But they have made almost the same mistake in the broadcasting corporation, so...

TopiL,
Yes, you are mostly likely correct. I was simplifying things to make them easier to catch. However, what comes to the religious side of things, I'm sure it had some amount of influence on the swedish annexation of Finland. The catholic and orthodox church at the time were racing to convert the pagans between their zones of influence - I'm sure the Catholic Church had its hand in supporting the swedes to conquer and convert Finns.

Whether the turning of Finland in to a part of Sweden was a conquest or not is a matter of semantics. Perhaps a better word would be colonization - after all, there was no organized finnish state to resist the swedes, nor real war that happened, other than some minor skirmishes. However, it is clear that Finland was ruled by the swedish for centuries after and the elite was composed of swedish. I think that is usually the sign of conquest or colonization.

I think, Ann, that for a Finn the absurdity lies even in the concept of "going protest on the streets". You think of something like in LA riots, whereas we think of a few people with signs on a street... And its really very few people that even bother. Finns are sort of apathetic and peaceful in the sense we seldom have mob rioting. There have been a few cases; but even what happened at the Presidential Palace 6.12. last year... is nothing compared to say Gothenburg summit riots - and Sweden is just next door. We do have violence and people get violent, but getting "heated up" is more concern "what would the neigbours say". And Finn have this respect of authority thing so taking your kid out of school would quite... hrm... drastic?

Why are some americans here trying to make Finland look bad?
Are you jealous or what because we Finns are proud of ourselves? Well, it seems so..

Finnish school system must be the worst among the industrialized countries. Todays Helsingin sanomat says, only 33% of students finishes university in 5.5 years.
To get to university, some try 3-4 years in a row, do nothing but study for most of the year, then get in or give up.
But it is not the same to all:
The swedish speaking students do get in easily. Finns go to trade schools. They go to universities as they have a lot more places than the finnish speaking.

"Why are some americans here trying to make Finland look bad?" Tiina, dear. You are seeing something I don´t see.

And you, school system. Weren´t your Swedish/Finnish language rants enough? It is no wonder university studies take more than 5,5 years, and it has nothing to do with school system. People do work, have children and so on, they don´t study full-time, so it takes time. Also in many fields that 5,5 years is impossible, even full-time.

"Finns go to trade schools." Sure, and also universities. Pay a little visit to the nearest university and listen to what language people speak.

"comparison to the situation in America would be more along the lines of comparing the Finn-Swedes to the Jews in America rather than to the Civil Movement and white supremists. At least the old myth of Jews controlling the market, banks, the universities, Hollywood, is similar to the myth of Finn-Swedes still being in control in Finland. "

Well that is not only a little bit far-fetched.

Do the americans all have to learn about the Jewish culture and learn their language (or be thrown off school?)

Finns are still scared of the swedes (and viking) and do as they say. It is in the national psyche, politicians bow to them.

(Widely reported in media:)
When Adolf Hitler found Jews to be a lesser race, at the same time the Swedes found Finns (among others) to be a lesser race and themselves to be 100% aryan.
That was the official state line, the hatred coming from their most prestigious academics.

After the war they changed their mind and started calling Finns criminals (also locking up countless innocent Finns) and savages, but not a lessed race anymore. Speaking of Finnish on public places, such as schools, was forbidden. That was widely supported by the populace.

Before world wars the Swedes had occupied the whole country of Finland. Finns had to pay lots of tax and give lots of men for the king, to die in battlefields of europe. Lots of the noble men that came from Sweden, to raided land, were murderers etc.

Before the country existed, the viking made raids, robbing, stealing, raping.

There still lives descendants of the viking in Finland. Lots of the people of Åland, the island between Finland and Sweden you can see if take a ferry between the countries, which pretty much lives by selling tax-free alcohol on the ferries mostly owned by them (called viking and silja line) used to be pirates who lived by raiding passing ships.

""Finns go to trade schools." Sure, and also universities. Pay a little visit to the nearest university and listen to what language people speak."

Most Swedes in Finland go to universities. Only a small portion of Finns go as there are no places. Quite a lot of places for the swedish:

http://www.abo.fi/
http://www.helsinki.fi/universitetet/
http://www.hanken.fi/hanken/sve/index.php

http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/juttu4.htm
There being more places for the swedes is also against the law.
Alas, in Finland, the government does not have to follow its laws anymore than in the Soviet Union.

Who voted for the language law ?

http://www.aamulehti.fi/lavajarvi/vieraskirja/

"I knew this blog would reach similar proportions as the famous (well, at least in Finland it is famous) "Conan O'Brian hates my home land" incident. We Finns started to send postcards to poor Conan well before he had made any insults on Finland, which of course prompted him to insult us for this stupidity (and rightly so)."

Stupidity? Think that rather showed good sense of humour? At least I thought so.

But it was taken too far when topics about Finland on NBC message board were banned after a week or two. *thumbs up*

I went at a vocational school and all we had to study Swedish allthought everyone wanted to study English.

The municipality where the vocational school is Finnish as +90% of the municipalities in Finland.

I have had no use of Swedish here.
The state expects me and us to move potentially to Sweden or Aland?

It is still like that in every vocational school. All students have to attend on mandatory Swedish classes allthought no one needs Swedish. Speak of a high class vocational school system:(

But it was taken too far when topics about Finland on NBC message board were banned after a week or two. *thumbs up*
--
Well, (just read the boards/read the talk about those matters) there was the sign "sweden sucks" so there is an obvious reason for the banning - swedes started to say their americans and started to be "pissed off" by the finns' presence in the boards. Americans (or whoever kept the boards) did not realize that. In such boards, often more than half the people are from abroad.

"Are people in southern states of the US still bitter to "Yankees" about Civil War? I'm sure there must be a handful of people who are? Well, that is pretty much the case with swedish-speaking finns and the extremists who think they are the source of all evil. Exchange swedish-speaking finn with yankee and you got the picture."
--
Well if you have to use that analogy:
The north won there. Here, the south won. The slaves (finns) were not freed.

""It's very civil, part from the bathroom graffiti in university stalls which are very anti-Swedish.""

Civil ?
Go to a swedish-speaking town in finland, speak finnish too loud during the evening and wonder why the gang came and beat you up. Or try to find work in one, if you have a finnish name.

"I've never met or heard of an American high-school graduate, who really can communicate in another language than English."
--
The Finnish high-schools are supposed to be somewhere between the american private schools and the american public schools, not as good as the private, not as bad as the public. Have no experience of any of them myself, only what I have heard.

"Now take Sweden, which has Malmo, a majority minority city that is in utter chaos. Gang rape of Swedish girls by minority boys and men who are taught that Swedish (or German, or English , or Dutch or whatever) girls are whores."
--
Swedish culture derives from the viking culture. Many of the minorities' cultures are such that rape is not even thought of. Yet the minorities are blamed and locked up.

""Copies of old exams are available in the department offices. And the new exams tend to repeat the same questions as the old ones."

Sure, if you go through enough old tests, they are bound to include questions on the same topics (or even the same questio""

It used to be compared to Japan, that there too, very hard to get into uni, but after you get in, no more problems for the next couple of years.

Third absurd comparison I seen here so far:
"those ranting about swedish elites stomping on the rights of finnish majority are bigots. Taking them too seriously is like thinking the KKK would be a major force in USA"

Reality-check:
If the KKK was a major, german-speaking force, all americans would have to speak german (no offence to germans intended, long ago, everywhere in the world the nazi ideas were in place, germans had bad luck to be the first to incorporate them into their state - Swedes were never invaded despite the same kind of ideas about finns, gypsies, lapps that the germans had about the jews)

"European border with Russia, fought off the Russians , never was occupied them,"

Reasons for non-occupation:
land-ownership, many finns own land, to own land = want to keep it
weather = russian soldiers were not equipped enough
religion = too much of it in finland, "i'll go die and end up in heaven", saved the country

"Finnish-Canadian and who does not get plastered every night after work"

Read on a newspaper, Finns who long ago moved into Canada, had to take Swedish names in order not to be viewed badly by the Swedes and the others who believed what the Swedes had told about the Finns. One of them was an ancestor of Pamela Anderson.

Just as Finns envy successful businessmen (can you name any other country in which you can purchase your neighbor's gross income from the previous fiscal year as a text message to your cell phone?)

"(can you name any other country in which you can purchase your neighbor's gross income from the previous fiscal year as a text message to your cell phone?)"

First of all I would like to comment on this whole swedish-finn debate. Most of the comments are balantly racist. First of all, not all swedish-finns have alot of money, hate finns and study. Just like not all finns are vice versa.

But the main thing I would like to comment on is how the finnish education system is viwed as the best one in the whole world. Ok, PISA results do say something, but not everything. What PISA misses is how the students feel in school. The finish children aged 13-15 are the most depressed in THE WHOLE WORLD! Suicide rates are extremly high and finnish children also bully alot. While the finnish education system might teach you much it isn't at all good for the children. It breaks them down and stresses them out. The enviroment in finnish schools is BAD!

I guess what I'm trying to say with this is; don't stare yourself blind on PISA results, there are many much more important things to look at.

jacob.bostrom (at) gmail.com