This Week's Debate: Immigration

As the Senate Judiciary Committee heads toward a vote on immigration reform a week from today, The Debate turns its attention toward this divisive issue.

We will debate the clash between America's fondest ideals of immigration -- "give me your tired, your poor," etc. -- and the country's informal, but perhaps more ingrained, tradition of xenophobia. Up for discussion: the Border Patrol vs. the border crossers; the wisdom of guest worker programs vs. amnesty; concerns over terrorism and drug trafficking; and the disparity between federal immigration laws and federal enforcement of those laws.

The failure of enforcement spawned groups like the Minutemen, originally dedicated to assisting the U.S. Border Patrol (which adamantly insists the help isn't needed.) The Minutemen movement has spread across the country, fighting a guerrilla war against illegal immigration.

In Herndon, Virginia, the Minutemen spend their mornings trying to intimidate day laborers. For a balanced and intimate look at this effort, read the Washington Post Magazine piece by Michael Leahy, who will be live online today at 1 p.m.

This promises to be an engaging exchange. Bring your friends as we debate immigration in today's America: from opening the borders to building a 2000-mile-long wall and everything in between.

Any other issues you'd like to address?

By Emily Messner |  March 20, 2006; 7:21 AM ET  | Category:  This Week's Issue
Previous: Asterisks in the Record Books? | Next: The Paranoid Fringe of the Immigration Debate

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Oh, goody! Politics!

We like politics, Emily...and more of it. :)

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 20, 2006 08:28 AM

Now to business...

This immigration issue isn't just with the USA, and the spectre of xenophobia. It's becoming global.

Unlike 20 years ago, immigrants now are refusing to assimilate within their new home. Instead of forced segregation that occured in the boroughs of New York City, or the surburbs of Boston -- or the Asian "Little Tokoyos" or "Chinatowns" along the Western coast -- today the segregation is on purpose.

I'm not surprised.

During the intergration years here in the South (I'm from Georgia), no matter how the ratios were played, the bussing, and the forced "you need to get along", the lunchroom was divided naturally into a White camp on the right, and the Black camp on the left.

That was the early 1980's, not the drug store lunch counter of the 1960's. No one force each to seperate, the kids did so because they felt affinity with their own kind.

Fast forward to 2000. Instead of lunchrooms, even our government documents are showing a two tiered system of language. Instead of encouraging (or forcing by Law or social pressure) immigrants to learn English, and partake in the customs of their new home, these social experimenters decided it'll be "fair, decent, and kind" to let the fastest growing minority the right to have their language on government documents and beyond.

The result? The immigrants now have further reasons not to assimilate. Not only they'll sit on the left side of the lunchroom, they now even refuse to address themselves in English.

Is that good for America? No. It wasn't in the 1980's, and it's not today, but folks seem to think if folks appease immigrants they can have all the perks and attone themselves of the past discrimination.

All they need to do is look over to Europe to see the mess of ghettos, with folks who refuse to assimiliate, let alone even want to respect their new country. It happens because social groups start to feel entitled. Once spoiled, they'll demand even more "rights", even at th expense of that country's own identity.

I posted earlier a link from The American Conservative magazine outlining the REAL story of what happened with the cartoon "rage". That article outlined the struggle of a small country (Denmark) and it's national identity crisis it's facing with immigrants who refuse to be an active part of the country, and fulfill their duties as citizens.

Is it right that immigrants dictate the national mores, Laws, traditions of their new country? No. They have zero right to force their ways on an established country. The immigrants would revolt if it was done to their birthplace, how dare they try to do the same on their new homeland.

There will always be xenophobia as long as man is different and insist on different ideals/traditions/customs. But in this case, unlike anytime before, the influx of immigrants refusing to assimilate is the final straw.

When in the hell do they have the right to make even reading a medicine bottle a fight to find an English translation? Who gives them the right to have their own ghetto TV and music stations talking of their old home, and escalating their old world affiliation?

When you immigrate you are leaving your former country. You don't pack it in your suitcase and demand everyone else to speak Spanish or any other language other than English.

One language = one united country. We don't need to be Canada, and I sure hope we'll never become another.

Folks need to learn, this IS the United States of America. It's not Europe, it's not Asia, it's not South America, and it's not Africa.

When in Rome do as the Romans do. These immigrants who've spent 10/20 years in this country and refuse to speak/write/read in English should be deported. When they try to abuse the language barrier as an excuse to get out drunk driving and more, the USA doesn't need intolerant to not respect their new home.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 20, 2006 09:09 AM

When you put a controversial issue in the stark terms you have done;
"We will debate the clash between America's fondest ideals of immigration -- "give me your tired, your poor," etc. -- and the country's informal, but perhaps more ingrained, tradition of xenophobia.";
you only do the debate and us bloggers a disservice because the immigration debate should be about neither open borders or xenophobia. Its like talking about the drug problem in terms of lifetime sentences versus legalization.

If you want a debate, then consider this: the minimum wage is being held down artificaly by illegal immigrants. I heard a report the other day on NPR where a strawberry farmer claimed she needed the immigrants "because Americans will not work her farm for the wages she pays". Maybe the problem is not a shortage of labor, but the cheapness of the immigrant labor that so easily competes with American labor. Americans are being kept from good paying labor by immigrants who depress the salary base of many jobs. I remember in the 60s college students working farms during the summer break and the pay was good. Now no farmer asks for college students.

Commerce laws are to protect American businesses from cheap foreign imports. Immigration laws, in part, protect American labor from cheap foreign labor. But this administration has decided to allow cheap foreign labor in the form of illegals to come in via lax borders because their supporters WANT the cheap labor for their businesses. Its bad enough American jobs are moving overseas. Its made worse when the jobs that remain are given to illegals at minimum wage. The administration supports and encourages this to keep the salary base low.

The debate should not be immigration or no immigration as you have framed it, but whether to enforce just the existing laws to protect the American worker and why this administration and Congress have not done their job of enforcement.

Posted by: Sully | March 20, 2006 09:22 AM

Sandy, the topic is immigration, not assimilation ... and I could have guessed you were from Georgia...

Posted by: Sully | March 20, 2006 09:27 AM

Yo SandyK,

That's right. And soon at this rate, no more than thirty years, Hispanics will be the biggest ethnic group in this country, including your beloved former penal colony of Georgia, and they will control Congress the way the Irish and the Jews do now. All because your Republican Party will do what Big Business says. Not what you hicks want. What will you do, what will you do? Texas already has a Hispanics majority. You think they should assimilate? You are almost right. It's reverse assimilation. Resistance is futile!

Posted by: SandyKKK | March 20, 2006 10:23 AM

Isn't this the most astonishing thing? I have always been fascinated by the sweep of history; of how history takes its own turn of desseminating a sort of beautiful poetic justice.
From the 15th century through the 20th century, it was the white man on the move all around the world, establishing his own dominance, displacing the cultures of less advanced peoples all around the world, most typically peoples of darker skins.

Now, it appears that destiny--or history--has taken a hand so to speak. All over the world, the dark skinned peoples of the earth are on the move. They are coming into every country. And, they are bring the richness of their own cultures with them.

Oh we can squeal and hiss in probably the same way they did when we came into their countries and displaced their cultures. But now, history is on their side. And I guess it is the white man's turn to taste what it is like to have an alien force override his society and displace his culture.

And trust me. All of the walls we build, all of the troops we station at our borders, all of the resistance we muster in the form of "minutemen" will only serve the same purpose as the reistance of men in the past like Geronimo, or Juarez or Bolivar who fought valiantly, but fought in vain.

Posted by: Jaxas | March 20, 2006 10:35 AM

The question is not immigration the question is organized legal immigration versus illegal immigration. I am all for controlled legal immigration what we must control is the rampart illegal immigration that we new have.
I propose a solution to the problem of fining any employer a set dollar amount. I would suggest the amount be set at 100,000 dollars per illegal employee. The sum of the fine to be divided equally between the government and the whistleblower. This would give the general public the incentive to participate and employers the fear concerning the extent of the fine. With this resolution the employers would have to prove their employees have the proper credentials to work on this country. False or counterfeit papers would not be a mitigating reason for not paying the imposed fine. The fine would be mandatory without modification.

Posted by: ReggieVHH | March 20, 2006 10:45 AM

In the New World Order as called for by the Trilateral Group and the Carlyle Commission there will be no borders. National states are socialist anachronisms. There will only be free flow of capital to where it can be most efficiently allocated and applied. The world will be run, in secret and thru proxy elected officials to keep the locals in content, by The Elite. The Elite will decide which company run which ports, which labor pool is best suited for which job category. Of course we must feed the locals, depending on locations, red meats such as abortion, gay marriage, cartoons, fear of terrorism, martyrdom, even the occasional wars, to gain and maintain power. But only The Elite will rule as specified in Plato's, Friedman's, and various Times and Post columnist's writings. There will be room in The Elite for cooperating bloggers, columnists, and various useful idiots.

Posted by: The Neocon Globalist | March 20, 2006 10:46 AM

>> I propose a solution to the problem of fining any employer a set dollar amount. I would suggest the amount be set at 100,000 dollars per illegal employee. The sum of the fine to be divided equally between the government and the whistleblower.

What a splendid suggestion. The locals DO think they are still in control of their governments! Of course when The Elite make campaign contribution we don't usually ask for much more than a hundred fold return on investments in the form of tax breaks, sole source contracts, etc.

The Elite are the goverment. Next suggestion?

Posted by: The Neocon Globalist | March 20, 2006 10:57 AM

Emily: Would it be possible for you to have even more canards and false choices in your statement?

For instance, the choice isn't between Lazarus and "xenophobia". There are many choices, including not being corrupt and supporting the enforcement of our laws.

And, any "guest" worker program is amnesty: the "guests" will never go home.

Are you sure you want to make the claim that the MMP is "intimidating" people?

I really shouldn't expect anything else from the WaPo, since your paper has made it quite clear that it strongly supports illegal immigration.

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/004285.html

http://immref.com/spin/14th-amendment-citizenship/

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/004476.html

http://lonewacko.com/blog/archives/004428.html

Posted by: lonewacko_dot_com | March 20, 2006 12:46 PM

The way the immigration debate is unfolding, not just in this blog, points to more than xenophobia. The sub-text is out-and-out racism. The rant about failure to assimilate is nonsense. Most second generation immigrants don't speak their parents' language. The real problem is rejection by the white community. If you want to see roadblocks to assimilation ask any African American. Go to the Ghetto. And how many Mexican-American immigrants are members of your golf club? The most segregated place in America is your church on Sunday morning. Think about it. The rant now is about Mexicans: poor brown-skin folk who, gasp, don't speak English but are willing to work where English is not necessary, and American's wont work. If there were three million undocumented white, English-speaking Canadians working in the US, one wouldn't hear a peep. (Believe me, all those liberals would be highly subversive). The minimum wage argument is a false one. Americans wont work in the fields picking cucumbers no matter what the wage. Get used to it: there are lots of unpleasant low-skilled jobs which Americans reject for social status reasons, but which, for immigrants from poor countries, are better than what they can get at home. This has always been the case. Recognise, then put your prejudices aside, and legitimise those who are already here and encourage legal immigration of needed workers. That way you will continue to be able to afford to buy good food, stay at decent hotels, and eat at restaurants, not to speak of taking taxis and enjoying hospital care.

Posted by: Eric Yendall | March 20, 2006 12:49 PM

Here in San Antonio it is difficult to tell the difference between illegals and native U.S. citizens who have lived here since before Texas was a state. (It was originally Mexico!) Legitimizing current workers with valid work permits. (And just where will illegals get fines and back taxes on $5.15 per hour?) Work out with Mexico valid identity cards and a version of some kind of work permits that are recognized by both governments. None of this will completely stop border-crossing, but then after a legitimate system is set up employers could be fined for using workers without proper documentation. If you send all illegals home next week...the U.S. would probably cease having an increasing obesity problem...almost all restaurants would be closed!

Posted by: Arminda | March 20, 2006 01:10 PM

What are you people talking about? The issue is immigration. Immigration law in the US is the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA). IRCA requires that all employers inspect and verify documentation that establishes both the identity and employment authorization of every new employee, regardless of circumstance. The IRCA thus puts the onus on the employeer to ensure the people they hire are legal. The fines can be large, especially for small businesses. There are three escalating levels of fines for "knowingly" employing an illegal alien.
1. For a first violation of"knowingly" employing an illegal alien, a civil fine of at least $250 and up to $2,000 for each unauthorized alien will be levied.
2. For a second violation, fines increase to a minimum of $2,000 and up to $5,000 for each unauthorized alien.
3. For any subsequent violation, fines increase to a minimum of $3,000 and up to $10,000 for each unauthorized alien. IRCA also provides for criminal sanctions.

However, this administration has ignored the laws and so do many in congress. This is because it goes against business interests since illegals lower business costs. A good article on the reduction in enforcement can be found here with graphs of the decline since the 1990s.

Its really simple folks. If the feds enforced the law there would be little discussion. Illegals would find it hard to get work in a country where being illegal made it hard to find a job. But thanks to the administration ignoring this law, companies openly talk about hiring illegals. The problem is the Bush administration and its cherry picking of the laws it wants to enforce based on who contributes to republican coffers.

Posted by: Sully | March 20, 2006 01:19 PM

Forgot to include the link in my last posting to the article I mentioned. here it is: http://www.migrationinformation.org/Feature/display.cfm?id=332

Posted by: Sully | March 20, 2006 01:21 PM

Of course when US troops finally pull out of Iraq and the ambassador is seen leaving from the rooftop of the embassy soon after, get ready for a million or so pro American Iraqi refugees to be resettled in Texas. I'm sure all the pro war Texans will welcome these Shiites with open arms. Moqtada may get to run for Congress from Tom Delay's old district yet.

Posted by: Wexan | March 20, 2006 01:21 PM

I live in a white minority state and eat Mexican food far more than I eat "American" food. Frankly if the assimilation occurs, I'm the one who will have to assimilate further, which is fine, because it certainly wouldn't hurt me to work on my Spanish.

I tend to draw the line between what is acceptable immigration and unacceptable immigration not by the race of the immigrants but by what they demand in response.

If they are demanding we institute Shari'ah Law, like Islamic immigrants in Europe are, then a hostile response is necessary. Unless of course Burkas become fashionable.

But before debating facts about the beneficial or damaging effects actual immigration is having, we should first dutifully separate ourselves into two groups in a manner consistent with Emily's framing of the issue. Everyone on this side will be called "xenophobes" (ie: anyone who disagreed with Emily on the Dubai port deal, as her link suggests) and everyone on the other side will be called "supporters of America's fondest views of immigration best characterized by the noble Statue of Liberty and the rich immigrant history and tolerance it symbolizes here in America".

Let the balanced discussion begin.

Posted by: Will | March 20, 2006 01:23 PM

peasants fighting peasants..


as outsourcing takes hold and more jobs move overseas, and our citizens start being treated like 3rd world citizens...and the ones that are maintaining their tenuous hold on the middle class


look at this:

we just passed laws allowing unpaid overtime

we just passed laws reducing benefits for social security and medicare, reduced foodstamps by $380 million

with the incursion of outsourcing was a surge in bankruptcies that we passed tougher laws to protect the corporations

but not the citizens.

we increased tax breaks for the richest 3 percent...which in effect would pretty much embrace the corporations...

who would allowing illegal immigrants to come in more easily help?


those that want to pay less money for labor,

the corporations.


who would catering to illegal immigrants hurt?

those who would have to share an increasingly smaller pie...


americans peasants: service sector, which has been expanding rapidly over the last 20 years as

blue collar jobs with benefits move overseas.


we have enough tired and poor here, that aren't being taken care of.


you want the world to be a better place, you don't import 3rd world conditions into the United States...


you create a barrier between them and the United States and require that the osmotic financial and human rights equalize before the barrier is brought down...


we have lost blood, and our citizens are sick and have diminished financial capacity and diminished hope and future....


fix that first.

require that other countries meet or beat standards that we held in the 70's as far as labor laws and benefits are concerned and bring those same laws back into the United States

closing the border to goods that were made where labors laws are nonexistent, even if the companies that are using those peasants are "american owned,"


all arguments otherwise are not understanding the situation for what it is:

a capitulation of responsibility for American citizens rights and benefits, when WE made this country and it's corporations successful...


"your tired and poor"


makes sense when we are in an expansionist mode, and every person is needed...


that's why they sent prisoners to Australia..


we are creating tired and poor, working 60 hours with no benefits and working for Addeco, or other Temp labor organizations that can fire, lay-off, or not find jobs for those that don't meet their standards of employment....like taking a sick day

you don't do that on temp jobs.

in Europe they get 5 weeks vacation, on a temp job, _you don't miss work_

you figure it out college kids.


you're making it possible for the muckrakers to have something to right about,

and oliver twist becomes a reality again, already is for marginalized citizens in some communities.

cheers to the American affluent, who care less for you than they do for their dogs, because they don't know you.

.

Posted by: how about this? | March 20, 2006 01:27 PM

>> If you send all illegals home next week...the U.S. would probably cease having an increasing obesity problem...almost all restaurants would be closed!


The restaurant business.
The farming business.
The meat packing business.
The hotel business.
The construction business.

And perhaps even the war business, i.e., the US army.

Posted by: Armindeus | March 20, 2006 01:31 PM

The notion that illegals do work that Americans will not do is a classic example of class and race bigotry. Until a couple of years ago, I was compliance manager for a Boeing defense division. Because our facilities were secure facilities, it was part of my duties, in conjunction with HR and Security, to make sure that only U.S. persons worked at our facilities -- not just our employees but those of subcontractors as well. According to the pro-immigrant bigots, our lawns should have been jungles and our bathrooms toxic because Americans won't do such jobs; but, in fact, we had no problem whatsoever recruiting Americans who were willing to do such jobs and do them exceedingly well. They tended to be black and white folks who had dropped out of school, or had high school diplomas but who were not fully functionally literate or just din't like office jobs. They were more than willing to do manual labor.

What was the secret? By virtue of being a defense contractor, we paid the "prevailing wage", they received health and other benefits just like the engineers and MBAs; and, just as importantly, the corporate culture treated them with respect as an important part of the team.

The problem is not that Americans won't work. The problem is that America's affluent class, whether its business-people or academicians/government, seem to think that anyone who is willing to do the hard, dirty work that they won't do for themselves somehow doesn't deserve to be paid well or treated with respect. We've lost sight of the Biblical wisdom that a laboror is worthy of his hire. There is a pernicious class and race bigotry that looks down on those without a degree, and even socially sorts the degreed by the status of their schools. Let's face it, a lot of those folks who coo over their Latin American nannie would run and hide from any candidate for that position with a black face or a red neck.

If market forces were allowed to work without being subverted by illegal immigration, then real wages for the under-educated native-born who were willing to do such "hard, dirty" would rise. Besides wages, many would be covered by either employer-provided health insurance or insurance through unions. Indeed, such workers would command a premium because of their willingness to do such work, and more people would be willing to do it.

There would be benefits for the tax-payer and society in general. Fewer on welfare and medicaid, less crime, less income disparity. Given that most illegals remit a sizable chunk of their paychecks back home, that money would stay in the US economy (at least for one cycle, until they shopped at Walmart). Such hard, dirty jobs are, by their nature, the type of service jobs that, but for illegal immigration, are not susceptable to being outsourced abroad, so there would be no adverse effect on "competitiveness".

Two generations ago, when some Southerners said that black folks were lazy and wouldn't work, they were rightly branded as racist. Now, when members of the intelligentsia say that about "Americans", they're using code for lower class folks. The fact is that the yuppies with a sheepskin are just as bigoted as a cracker with a sheet.

Posted by: MikeDeal | March 20, 2006 02:28 PM

Ms. Messner fails to address one of the strongest factors leading to anti-immigrant sentiment: the negative effect that immigrants have on blue collar wages. Although xenophobia, ignorance and downright racism play a part in the anti-immigrant backlash, concrete examples of immigrant influxes lowering wages are far more important to average Americans. If Pedro from Monterrey wasn't here moving furniture out of U-Haul trucks for $10 an hour, then Americans would be forced to pay moving company workers Robert, Thomas or Ed $15 an hour to help them out. The reason working class people dislike large numbers of immigrants is that they compete for unskilled jobs, sending wages downward. The argument that immigrants are only doing jobs that American won't do is false, because if immigrants weren't willing to do these jobs for such low wages, Americans would be willing to do them for higher wages. Reporters tend to ignore or downplay this factor because they have no personal experience with job competition. They have a good education, high socio-economic standing and good life prospects. When the Washington Post starts outsourcing reporting jobs to Bangalore for 1/5th of the wage currently made by their American employees, we'll see how long it takes for reporters to start talking about this issue.

Posted by: EWoods | March 20, 2006 02:52 PM

Corporate America is removing the benefits to being a United States citizen...


they're taking away sick days, vacation days and increasing the amounts that you pay for deductibles on dental and medical...


when the world changes for your little blue collar buddies, it aint long 'til it changes for you.


by importing 3rd world conditions to the United States.


the peasants from other countries are competing with the peasants that are citizens, reducing their benefits, and removing their chance to bargain.

temp workers have become pandemic in "white collar" jobs too...


looking online for computer work recently, I found that compared to 3-4 years ago, the overwhelming majority of ads were for temp worker companies...

like:

Addeco, ManPower, Kelly, TAD Technical services, and so on

that used to hire for receptionist, envelope stuffing, or secretarial positions


I also know of companies that have brought in on a regular basis, citizens from overseas operations to replace managers, trainers, et al, _at lower pay_, as a way of cutting salaries, benefits and intimdating US workers...

before outsourcing was so common, down-sizing and eliminating positions while keeping the still maintained staff working over-time without pay, "but at least they had a job," was a common practice...

what you are calling "illegal immigration," is in actuallity corporate America turning it's backs on it's citizens...

I was working in McLean, VA a few years ago, near MITRE Corporation Hdqtrs. along Rte 123, near CIA hdqtrs....and witnessed Mexican laborers, exclusively being used behind fences, building apartments on land that had been leased to MITRE, that they vacated, not too far from Tysons Corner....in full sight..probably 1993.


they were behind fences so they couldn't mingle, what's up with that?


What about the people that were denied working on that project?

Posted by: dear ignorant american... | March 20, 2006 02:54 PM

then you know that they have a plethora of illegal immigrants that run the service sector...even though the cost of living is high there...


they have multiple families living in a single unit, check out Adams Morgan.


IF you live in Hawaii, and work as a waitress, because of the high cost of living you get paid a scale $10 hourly rate as well as getting tips...


in DC you'll make minimum and if you work illegally donate your tips to the owner...


since there is such a high rate of illegals in Virgina, DC and MD, there's always someone to do cleanup, service, yard work....that doesn't squeak if you cheat them...


why hire someone that knows what they're worth when you can hire Eddie from Peru, El Salbador, Guatamalea, or Mehico, eh?


clean up your own house, and neighborhood...might as well be Marion Barry running your congress....


as far as ethics go.

.

Posted by: IF you live in DC... | March 20, 2006 03:00 PM

Gee Emily, what exactly is that you & that swell bunch at the Post don't understand about the word "ILLEGAL"?

Posted by: Registered Voter | March 20, 2006 03:28 PM

Registered Voter:

These immigrants may be illegal, but unless federal authorities actually start taking the issue seriously, we have to be realists. Last time I checked, Post reporters don't have it within their powers to deport people.

Derek.

Posted by: Derek | March 20, 2006 04:21 PM

Sully said:

When you put a controversial issue in the stark terms you have done;
"We will debate the clash between America's fondest ideals of immigration -- "give me your tired, your poor," etc. -- and the country's informal, but perhaps more ingrained, tradition of xenophobia.";
you only do the debate and us bloggers a disservice because the immigration debate should be about neither open borders or xenophobia. Its like talking about the drug problem in terms of lifetime sentences versus legalization"

Although I don't always agree with Emily, I think you're being a bit unfair on her. She was just describing the extreme sides on each issue rather than narrowly defining the only positions on the argument. I think you were reading into her post what you wanted to read, not what was really there.

Posted by: Matt | March 20, 2006 04:50 PM

how about this? said:

"makes sense when we are in an expansionist mode, and every person is needed...
that's why they sent prisoners to Australia."

Um, no. Prisoners weren't sent to Australia because Australia had some kind of property boom or had a bull stockmarket and economy that was expanding rapidly. Australia's reason for being was prisoners. It was founded with them. The Brits sent prisoners to Australia because they'd run out of prison space at home (they had even resorted to using decommissioned naval vessels as prison hulks moored in English rivers). Prisoners weren't sent to Australia because Australia felt it needed to welcome more immigrants.

Posted by: Matt | March 20, 2006 04:56 PM

Here's the outline (and that's all it's intended to be) of a carrot-and-stick timetable for an immigration plan.

1. Secure the borders! Bring back the military from unnecessary foreign wars to supplement (supplant?) the border patrol AND the minutemen.

2. Immediately rescind the law automatically granting American citizenship to anyone physically born in the United States, unless evidence is produced within ten days of the birth that at least one admitted parent, who will legally contract to take full financial responsibilty for the child, is already either a citizen or permanent resident.

3. Require that ALL illegal immigrants already in the United States come forward and register their status within two years - no extensions, no exceptions. Use public funds to publicize the program widely and in so many languages that only the truly young, feeble-minded or medically comatose will not be alerted to it by the deadline.

4. Immediately deport for life ANY who fail to register, or who have ever been convicted of more than a traffic offense.
Exempt those who may have merely used false identification to get a job.

5. Issue all remaining reportees photo ID cards containing fingerprints and DNA samples, which can be quickly verified by government officers and prospective employers.

6. Allow all those in number 5 to remain in the United States providing they provide for themselves, pay all taxes, observe all major laws, and never use any other identity. Immediate lifetime expulsion (after any applicable jail time for criminal offenses) would apply to all exceptions.

7. Any remaining immigrants who work and conduct themselves as desirable residents for five years after registration will be immediately granted permanent US residency, including eligibilty for welfare, unemployment, medicare, and the equal right to earn citizenship with those who immigrated legally. This would also extend to any minor children they have provably supported for at least five years or since birth; those under five would be granted full citizenship at this time.

8. Throughout this process, determine how many (if any) more unskilled or low-skilled workers are necessary (at the national minimum wage!) to perform jobs provably turned down by unemployed citizens and permanent residents. Adjust immigration quotas accordingly on an 'as needed' basis.

9. Not least, fine any employer hiring illegal immigrants a sum designed to put them out of business - yes, this includes Wal-Mart, GM and Coca Cola!

Numbers in the above are subject to debate and adjustment, but the real question is: Does anyone in Congress have the political backbone to propose a similar plan?

Posted by: judgito | March 20, 2006 04:56 PM

Interesting ideas, Judgito. I've basically said the same things myself. I really feel like we must have a program of amnesty and registration/documentation as soon as possible. But how to secure the borders? -- that's the biggest problem. What's to stop a huge rush to cross the border during the time of notification for the illegals to come forward? There's little way for 90% of them to prove exactly when they entered the country.

Should there be different laws/leniency for folks who've overstayed their visas or students who didn't return to their country?

Would it be immoral to offer immediate citizenship to any currently undocumented/illegal who volunteers and completes a 4-year military hitch?

Posted by: Nance | March 20, 2006 05:41 PM

Jaxas writes - "Now, it appears that destiny--or history--has taken a hand so to speak. All over the world, the dark skinned peoples of the earth are on the move. They are coming into every country. And, they are bring the richness of their own cultures with them."

I could do without the "richness" of MS-13, burquas, demands that government employees Habla Espanol for certain jobs. The "dark" peoples, are only on the move to a dwindling list of countries - 14 or so Western nations, that let them in for cheap labor/multiculti ideological reasons. And many nations have realized that the way to preserve the "richness" of their OWN culture and way of life is to keep foreigners out. Japan would not be "richer and better" if 30 million whites, Chinese, hispanics, and Africans were dumped on it. It would simply be less Japanese.

Nor can guilty white liberals ever realize their fantasy of using their superior education to organize and run groups of minorities to leverage their numbers and advance white liberal power. Jewish Marxists organized and funded minority unions and even national groups like the NAACP. Thinking they would make the deals and do the thinking while the brawn and numbers made dealing with such groups mandatory. It actually worked for a generation, but then the minorities seized power in the 50s and 60s and tossed the liberal Jewish Marxists out..not just from leadership, but out, period...

White liberal Democrats down South and in America's inner cities thought they could survive if they represented blacks well, but they are a dying breed - as blacks prefer to vote for blacks.

Jaxas for more: "Oh we can squeal and hiss in probably the same way they did when we came into their countries and displaced their cultures. But now, history is on their side. And I guess it is the white man's turn to taste what it is like to have an alien force override his society and displace his culture."

Jaxas joins his idol Jesse. "Hey, hay! Ho, ho! Western Civ has got to go!" Won't happen, Jaxas.

America has a long history of isolating and marginalizing those that fail to assimilate or embrace the mainstream culture and it's values. You can say ----"Oooooouooo! That's so UN-PC"; and that Americans have an obligation to befriend a neighbor even if he hates infidels, is on welfare, refuses to speak English...but that's not how it goes..no law can trump human nature.

Amazing how the "Head Negroes" like Jesse are so totally bought and pimped out by the white Owner Class elites and wealthy special interests within the Democratic Party that want Open Borders and Jesse & Co., like the "Black Caucus" and Poverty Pimpout inner city mayors are all for immigration, never say a discouraging word - when the biggest victims of legal and illegal 3rd world masses swarming in are everyday blacks.

Since the immigrant invasion started, blacks have been displaced from dozens of labor fields they once dominated. Half of black men in their 20s are unemployed (up from 32% twenty years ago), another 8% are currently in prison. There are cultural factors weighing on this besides immigration, to be sure, but immigration is wrecking lower socioeconomic class black society while their ostensible "leaders" are rolling out the welcome mat to hispanics, Asians, Muslims, and overseas blacks. (More future Democrats! More Power for us Black Power Brokers! Welcome to America!) As long as the "black elites" get their payoffs and cushy government jobs for themselves and enough government flunky positions to keep female heads of households going, they continue to write off younger black men as ignorable and dispensible.

The impact is obvious...when you see blacks pushed out of whole industries in the Southwest and major US cities further north - and watch the hurricane rebuilding.

A friend was down there as a civil engineering consultant in Mississippi and noted that the contractors are trying as much as possible to slap a white or better a black female they set up as "owner". Then hire illegal aliens preferentially over local blacks since the Mexicans have a great attitude, give no lip, show up on time, and work hard...and the black or white female figurehead innoculates them from discrimination complaints since all the owner class cares about with "discrimination" is the mantra "minority - owned" with respect to federal contracts...not who the employees are. He notes busloads of Mexicans and significant influxes of other hispanics are arriving daily in his area while masses of young blacks hang out by the basketball courts in two parks, playing, but otherwise not involved in the work...

Posted by: Chris Ford | March 20, 2006 05:57 PM

Being on the "inside" of the immigration issue I can tell you the American public has NO IDEA how illegal immigrants are effecting this country. If they knew the truth they would be all for a wall and the toughest enforcement possible. The 12 million figure that is often thrown out as the number of illegal aliens in this country can be easily doubled. They DO NOT pay taxes and as such have NO medical coverage. Who do you think pays for that? That's right, you and I. I could go on and on. The illegal aliens and buisness' that employ them no EXACTLY what they are doing.

Posted by: Frank | March 20, 2006 06:04 PM

Posted by: SandyKKK

"Yo SandyK,

That's right. And soon at this rate, no more than thirty years, Hispanics will be the biggest ethnic group in this country, including your beloved former penal colony of Georgia, and they will control Congress the way the Irish and the Jews do now. All because your Republican Party will do what Big Business says. Not what you hicks want. What will you do, what will you do? Texas already has a Hispanics majority. You think they should assimilate? You are almost right. It's reverse assimilation. Resistance is futile!"

Yes, Sandy in a few years it's not a question of will they assimilate to your values, but will they force you to assimlite to their values

Posted by: Jamal | March 20, 2006 06:17 PM

Jamal-

And I hope that when you are forced to "assimilate" you will do so with the same self-defeating smugness you seem to have about the issue now.

As a born and raised Texan I have a lifetime's experience assimilating into Hispanic culture. If you want some recipe ideas to learn what you will be eating in the Hispanic-American future I would be happy to oblige you.

Posted by: Will | March 20, 2006 06:24 PM

Posted by: Will,

"And I hope that when you are forced to "assimilate" you will do so with the same self-defeating smugness you seem to have about the issue now.

As a born and raised Texan I have a lifetime's experience assimilating into Hispanic culture. If you want some recipe ideas to learn what you will be eating in the Hispanic-American future I would be happy to oblige you."

Will,

My smuge comment was in aggreement to Poster SandyKKK, who was responding to SnadyK's initial posting on this topic. I hope to post my comment soon. Judge me then.

|

Posted by: Jamal | March 20, 2006 07:24 PM

I came to this wonderful country legally, meaning I was a legal alien. I filled out all of the forms, had my picture taken, paid the fees, and was admonished to be self-sufficient and not become a burden to the country. Being here legally, I flourished.

Why would anyone think we need millions of illegal aliens with a 4th grade education, speaking no English, and having no knowledge of our culture.

Posted by: Bruce Small | March 20, 2006 08:25 PM

duh,

the English had some land that they needed settled and worked...a land that doesn't create anything isn't worth anything, and the english didn't have any compunction to keep them from hanging people if they wanted to.

I've seen the documentary regarding the settling of australia and why english prisoners were sent there...they sent women to tame the place, husbands and wives from a prison population....settlers...

the same reason the United States pushes home ownership, the best citizen is a vested one...


they were still offering land incentives as well as passage and money to engineers to emigrate to Australia during the 60's....expansion is a much different time than when there is more land than people


when there is more land than people, there's opportunity for everyone and very little shortage of it....that's not what's going on now....there is a great shortage of opportunity in the United States right now....and it grows greater with each year a congress is in place that panders to the affluent alone.

Posted by: Dear Matt... | March 21, 2006 12:28 AM

Sully wrote:
===========================================
Commerce laws are to protect American businesses from cheap foreign imports. Immigration laws, in part, protect American labor from cheap foreign labor. But this administration has decided to allow cheap foreign labor in the form of illegals to come in via lax borders because their supporters WANT the cheap labor for their businesses.
===========================================

The problem is EVERY administration has been passing this immigration buck. It's now on Bush's watch to resolve, but he won't -- not only because Neo-Cons love globalization (Dems do too, especially the types in the MSM. Right Emily? And why the debate is framed in such a way to favor immigration, when both Dems and Repubs are getting tired of services being spent on illegals and denied to their own families?), it's because the immigrants -- especially Hispanic -- vote conservatively due to their Catholic church ties.

In Clinton's time it was about votes as well, and not coming across as anti-foreigner.

Today, it's not so black and white among the aisle. They're looking at the budgets in their own states, and finding out the rates spent on welfare for ILLEGALS are rising. Now what are they going to do, let the illegals take up services while legal residents have to cut back because of the illegals? Where's the justice in that? How do you think the politicos can get elected when illegals don't vote, but the residents do????

Folks are using canards, race cards, labels of xenophobia and whatever to slant the debate about the issues. I mentioned above about assilimation because it IS THE issue with the immigration problem (and it's a real problem). When we start turning the USA into the Balkans to appease the so-called "rights" of immigrants who want to make this country like the one they're FLEEING, yes!, citizens will question the direction and want something done about it. This is OUR culture, our country, our Laws and our traditions -- it's not Mexico's. It's not Europe's. It's not Asia's. It's not Africa's. We have our own national identity, that works with assimilating the best of ALL cultures, but tries to keep the junk from the Old World (like petty rivalries) at bay.

The beauty of the USA is taking every culture in, but blending it in moderation, under one flag, one language, one set of laws.

That's the point being lost here while folks use the tired racial divide and xenophobic claptrap to poison the debate.

***And Emily that was a disservice to start a thread on such a preconceived theme, then expanding on it in a seperate thread. It's like if anyone disagrees with the MSM idea of what's right, it's just "kooky", "fringe" and "wrong". Problem there is, who is judging the MSM own bias????***

We're a nation of immigrants, first, second, third and more generations old (even the Native Americans migrated here). But if we don't assimilate and become a PART of this country, this country won't be the USA anymore, it'll be the Disunited States of America.

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 21, 2006 12:57 AM

Matt wrote:
===========================================
Although I don't always agree with Emily, I think you're being a bit unfair on her. She was just describing the extreme sides on each issue rather than narrowly defining the only positions on the argument. I think you were reading into her post what you wanted to read, not what was really there.
===========================================

Actually it takes no reading into Emily's viewpoint, when she made another thread that was quite clear about her own bias. No longer is it a debate, it's a conclusion -- if you disagree, you're just a fringe "kook".

That doesn't encourage debate, that encourages negative opinions about the bias of the reporter to judge the viewpoints more different than her own. Yes, there are the fringes, but if you disagree with the immigration policy as we have it; and the problem of rewarding illegals for coming here illegally; and questioning it's not a right to offer illegals services they don't pay for (or become LEGAL citizens to vote to keep or deny), and being called a xenophobe for doing so, that's definately not a debate, that's an commentary piece, cut and dried and aimed for the peanut gallery.

There's a difference of showing both sides, and labeling the "other" side as simply "fringe" when you don't agree with it. Fringe groups don't reason the outcomes, they just want things now without thought of consequences. Most of the folks arguing this immigration issue SEE the consequences and want to prevent it. It can't be done when folks play to the ploys of "they're poor; of a different race; they need handouts, please" turning a legal issue into an emotional one.

This is the Schavio case in a different way, but with similiar themes. It's sad that an issue like this has to be politically muddied on partisan prejudices.

SandyK
A fully assimilated American

Posted by: SandyK | March 21, 2006 01:10 AM

EWoods wrote:
===========================================
The reason working class people dislike large numbers of immigrants is that they compete for unskilled jobs, sending wages downward. The argument that immigrants are only doing jobs that American won't do is false, because if immigrants weren't willing to do these jobs for such low wages, Americans would be willing to do them for higher wages.
===========================================

That's the sum of this issue: how it's affecting the citizen at home, day-to-day.

It's not that immigrants are taking the jobs no one wants, it's that they actively compete for the same jobs, at pay that close to it. Look at road construction bids, look who is getting the bids. It's not the locals with their contractor (who pay the local taxes), it's some company outside the region who's filled with recent immigrants (legal or illegal), taking the jobs.

So when something goes wrong with the construction, who is going to be responsible? If it was local contractors the DA can have them in court quick. That's not the case with imported labor. After seeing the outcome of road signs that collapsed killing car passengers, I want accountability. If the local contractor used sub-par materials with untrained labor, I want the victims families to sue that contractor for loss of limb or life. That's possible with local contractors.

We're even losing our protections all to appear more anti-foreigner. That's wrong, as citizens have rights to address wrongs. A foreign filled contractor may not keep the workers for long, so the crew that did the damage would be anywhere or have fled upon the news of a tragedy -- and flee right back to where they came.

Stop thinking of this just as a race issue. It's about a RIGHTS issue. Citizens are being denied their rights, and can be denied healthcare, education, college placement because illegals take those slots.

I careless what color or nationality they are. Come here illegally, take our jobs, deny services and rights, you need to go back where you came. Point blank, as you're not a citizen, and don't ADD to our civilization -- you suck it for it's worth and a possible breeding ground of terrorism as well (who else would you think al Qaeta would look for helpers within our borders? Not Mr. Mojo Corporate-Raider. It's Ms. Maid, Mr. Road Constructor; Dr. Got here on a VISA, MD and his collegue, Mrs. Nurse Shortaged VISA, RN).

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 21, 2006 01:27 AM

Derek wrote:
===========================================
These immigrants may be illegal, but unless federal authorities actually start taking the issue seriously, we have to be realists. Last time I checked, Post reporters don't have it within their powers to deport people.
===========================================

True. But encouraging amnesty of illegals they can do, and are doing. In this case of Washington Post: is it to beef up their sales (since they recently bought a Latino outlet)???

See, it's not all about what's good for the country. It's maybe a way to keep a job and get paid.

Just watch when reporters have to compete with reporters that would do the same work for 1/2 their pay. Then they'll feel the same outrage us blue collar types are facing.

Working in the IT arena, you'll see what globalization has done to computing, and the level of quality go down the drain too. When YOU'RE telling the support tech their own job, that's really sorry service....

ATI Guy: "Yeah, just insert the card now".
ME: "Ah, suppose to turn off the PSU to do this, you know?"
ATI Guy: "Right, I forgot"

[The consequence: bye bye motherboard if the PSU wasn't unplugged. Static can destroy it, let alone you could get one nasty shock that can kill you]

Never seen such incompetence in computing ever since this outsourcing junk started. If it's not that they can't speak English well enough to understand troubleshooting (I would NOT trust them on ANY wiring), it's they're under trained and can damage more than the component you're asking for help with!!

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 21, 2006 01:45 AM

In case others who won't bother to read the comments of the other part of this week's issue due to it's tone...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/17/AR2006031701924.html

===========================================
Tom Rosenstiel, a former reporter and now director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, believes two problems have damaged usefulness and profitability. "Too many newspapers are edited for journalists, sources and prizes," he said. He also believes newspapers have made a mistake by ignoring immigrants, blue-collar communities and poorer neighborhoods, preferring a more elite readership. "They cut off their future." (The Post made a smart move in buying El Tiempo Latino, a local Spanish-language newspaper.)
===========================================

Disclaimers are needed. Especially since the tone of the Ports and this current issue has a theme that's running very counter to what's felt at home, and by minorities themselves.

Appeasing readership in such a way is indeed a disservice for the rest of the readership across the country (and those affected by the actions of the media on them).

Emily, I'm not angry with you as a person, but the business side overstepped themselves, at the expense of other minorities and citizens. This issue it's clear it's not a "liberal media" talking, it's making money. Which makes it even worse, since real people are affected, people that supposely this paper claims to care about, but seem to exploit.

50 years ago our local paper did the same venue (funny how history repeats itself). Today it's trying to repair the damage. Goto the Augusta Chronicle's website, and read up on the history of their all black newspaper, and it's role it made in the community years later (and the community's distrust in it).

And before folks cry, "Oh, that's a Cracker newspaper!", the editor then is the Republican who destroyed the Cracker Party (even in fisticuffs in court). Their business model was to reach out to the community, but it backfired even with the good indentions of their editor.

Washington needs to broaden their horizons and learn how to overcome what already has been done, and the mess it can create with multi-ethic publishing.

No, we're not all "fringe" types or crackpots, Emily. Some of us been down this model of publishing and living it's effects.

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 21, 2006 02:34 AM

This is not a spam! Emily your spam filter is blocking regular post!

Posted by: Borg | March 21, 2006 09:00 AM

Have to type in the correct letters/numbers or the bot killer won't allow you to post. It's strange that WP doesn't do it with every post, just some every now and then.

SandyK

Posted by: SandyK | March 21, 2006 10:21 AM

Mike Deal wrote:
"According to the pro-immigrant bigots, our lawns should have been jungles and our bathrooms toxic because Americans won't do such jobs; but, in fact, we had no problem whatsoever recruiting Americans who were willing to do such jobs and do them exceedingly well."

I'll ignore for the moment all of the stuff about race, bigotry, and that sort. What you are driving at is the economics of labor. In this respect, your example of Boeing is not very representative of the nation at large. The extra incremental cost of your All American janitors, gardeners, and kitchen workers is an insignificant addition to the cost of a 747 or one of your planes destined for the military, certainly well under 1%. Further, at least in the commercial side of the business, your single serious competitor based in Europe is saddled with similar costs for its manual labor. In other words, you are uniquely well equipped to afford your superior moral position. The nation's reality is somewhat different.

If you look at the cost structure of agriculture for example, you will find that the cost of field labor as a percentage of total product cost ranges up from 25% to 60%. And I'm excluding things like grains that are highly mechanized and dominated by capital and fuel/fertilizer costs. To transform this labor into an All American force would at least double and maybe triple these particular product costs. This would have to be reflected in an increase in product prices, and if you do the math, very significant increases in prices. So us consumers, righties, lefties, rich, poor, would pay the tab at the grocery store. Of course the immediate effect would be twofold. First we would lose whatever agricultural export business we had in these high labor crops. Second we would find ourselves inundated with newly price empowered foreign competition in these same crops. Unless we erected barriers to those imports, our domestic production would simply die and our All American agricultural labor force with it.

The truth of the matter is that our agricultural sector by and large maintains its competitiveness in free world markets only through huge government subsidies in the case of grains and sugar for example, and the import of cheap labor in most other agricultural endeavors. So I think it is kind of silly to talk about sealing off the borders and expelling all the illegals without concurrently recognizing and addressing the internal economic effects. There is some danger here of shooting ourselves in the foot.

Of course not all illegal labor goes to the agricultural sector. We have such enterprises as WalMart and the construction industry taking advantage as well. WalMart is in the retail business. The use of cheap illegal labor in their case is not necessary to compete with foreign enterprises, but to gain a competitive advantage against domestic competitors, Target, KMart, Safeway, Albertsons, etc. The beneficiaries are consumers, in the form of slightly lower prices. There is relatively little economic cost in shutting this down right now. It is part of why we love to hate WalMart, as we keep buying more and more from them.

The construction industry is a bit harder pill to swallow. Labor costs in a typical home are about on par with material costs and probably constitute 25-35% of the sales cost. The cost of an All American labor force here probably bumps labor costs up by 50% or so. That probably adds 10-20% to the consumer's cost of buying a home in those markets where illegals are available for this purpose. Clamping down here does not enable or imperil our economic position vis a vis the world so its just a question of whether consumers are willing to forgo the benefit to them of cheap illegal labor.

I live in a grape growing region of California. We have lots of Mexican and Central American folk, legal and illegal, making a living around here, legally and illegally (pot competes with grapes as the cash crop of choice here). We also have a lot of redneck Okie descendants in this valley; they speak a foreign language called Boontling. For the most part they are all pretty nice hardworking folk and we get along quite well. The folk from down south of the border have all been drawn here for economic reasons. It is a way to make a better living than they could at home, a way to maintain their families either here or at home. As long as it is possible to do so, they will. I daresay, any one of us in their position would do exactly the same. That is the reality of it.

There is no point to arguing about legality and illegality, to condemning these illegals for violating the very laws we have chosen to ignore, have chosen not to enforce. I think it was Sully who outlined precisely the 1986 Immigration Act provisions we have deliberately ignored, not just Bush II but also Reagan, Clinton and Bush I. This Act contained amnesty provisions in it and was supposed to provide an end to the problem once and for all. Senator Alan Simpson moved heaven and earth for years to achieve a political balance to address all points of view. Alas, here we are again a mere 20 years later.

It is perfectly legitimate to debate this subject. But for crying out loud, debate the reality of it and not the emotionally supercharged side issues of racism and bigotry and cultural differences and fearmongering.

Posted by: Cayambe | March 21, 2006 03:28 PM

The real issue is the socio-economic conditions in Mexico and Central America that motivate people to migrate either legally or illegally. It's not racist at all to say these people would rather remain in their homelands with their families if they could. Shouldn't we really be discussing what American businesses and diplomats can do to encourage the structural change necessary in Latin America? IMO, that's the only solution. Even amnesty is just a stop-gap measure in comparison.

Posted by: | March 21, 2006 03:46 PM

Look at any number of countries that are in shocking shape these days and they all have one thing in common. The rule of law if failing or never existed. A country must enforce its laws. Right now our laws say you cannot come here without permission. We should either enforce that law, by whatever means are necessary, or abandon it. We all know that many restaurants and contractors employ illegals. Nobody seems to care that the law is being broken every day and that's very unhealthy for our country. I think building a wall at the border will benefit a few contractors, but it's not a smart use of money. Simply make it very expensive and very painful for anyone found paying an illegal to do work. Simultaneously put in place a system that makes it possible to go on the web and verify a social security number and green card number. You don't have to give out private data. Just enter both and the person's name, and confirm that they belong to the same, known person. If you can't show a transaction record in an employee's file proving that you did this and got an ok response, then a year in jail and a $50K fine would guarantee across the board compliance. If Amazon can find me just about any book in print in a fraction of a second, then the US Goverment can implement an efficient system for checking legality. I think the reason this hasn't happened (since it's an obvious approach) is that our elected representatives don't want a workable system. Just as during the Prohibition era, congressmen and senators would publicly proclaim their support for the idea, then go out and get trashed on Canadian whiskey, so it goes today. We have put a pack of hypocrites in charge of operations.

Posted by: peterm | March 22, 2006 03:49 PM

Of COURSE we should build a wall along our border. We MUST stop those Canadians from crossing over, taking advantage of our higher perscription drug prices.

Posted by: Ken in Arlington | March 23, 2006 07:52 AM

What countries could not win or accomplish by force of arms is fast becoming a reality by Illegal Invasion and Prolific Breeding aided & abetted by Corrupt Politicians at all levels of government! At the present rate within 10 to 15 years & probably less, we will be a third world country!

The excuse, the Politicians use, is the Illegal Aliens are only trying to have a better life, well so are Bank Robbers and other criminals! But common criminals are nothing in Comparison to the damage done to this country by the Illegal Invasion!

Illegal Aliens are robbing the USA of much more then any other criminals in the USA history, they are just taking money but a country! As for, as crime, by the time you finish reading this there will be robberies, rape, killing and other crimes committed by Illegal Aliens against American citizens! Now we are also experiencing all kinds of diseases that were eradicated in this country like T.B and worse brought back into this country by the Illegal Aliens!

While 9/11 was terrible! We are letting Illegal Aliens enslave millions of American Citizen each year with Drugs pouring across our open borders, while Murdering, Raping & Robbing many more Americans Citizens than was killed in 9/11. For this, they get 100 of Billions in Benefits and a whole gang of Corrupt Politicians at every level of government & in direct violation of our Immigration laws, supporting and working on their behalf!

Our President's fine words about Terrorist & Terrorism is contradicted by his failure to control our open Borders! His acquisition in letting Mexico & Latin American send Millions of Illegal Aliens across our Open Borders is in direct violation of Article 4 Section 4 of the Constitution, and makes a lie out of his often stated concern with terrorist and terrorism!

If poorly Educated Illegal Aliens can pour across our open Borders than Terrorist far better Educated and with vastly more resources can also! One can only conclude by his actions that protecting the American Public is secondary to his wish to supply Slave Labor to businesses and Company officials. Apparently he thinks the risk of Terrorist crossing our open borders with WMD and killing thousand of Americans Citizens is well worth the Risk!

We now have Latino Barrios in every community, mostly populated by people here illegally, even in small towns where crime was never a problem, until the Illegal Invasion! Where American Language, American Ideals, & anything American is rejected & most are very anti-American & rabid in their hate for both American Citizens and American. American Citizens that fought our wars, paid the taxes, and obeyed the laws take a great risk of getting Robbed or Killed, if they dare go into those areas!

While the Politicians sit in there Ivory towers & either have no concept or don't give a Damn about the kind of world their Policies are crating for American Citizens! It should be mandatory for those Politicians to go live and Experience the Crime and & lowing of our standard of living faced by ordinary Citizens before they foster their Corrupt, & Asinine Policies on the American Public!

They are crating another Iraq in this country where whole sections are off limits to Legal American Citizens! But the Illegal Aliens can go into any area they want with impunity!

What kind of country do we have when Illegal Aliens & lawbreakers are safe but legal American Citizens have large areas in every community where they are unwelcome, unsafe, hated, and dare not go?

While the Politicians are busy destroying this country, American citizens get to pay for the Illegal Alien babies, pay for their kids schooling, their medical benefits, welfare and all other benefits our elected Politicians can think of to reward them with!

We even reward their Illegal babies with American Citizenship. Like American Citizenship has no value and million have not fought and died for the honor and privilege of being Americans, and citizens of other countries dream and wait years to become American citizens legally! It seems American Citizenship should have a higher Requirement & Standards than 2 people here Illegally engaging in 3 minutes of unskilled labor!

Illegal Aliens have no allegiance to this country & do not want to be American citizens, but to import their way of life, their language, crime and corruption, to the USA! While exporting the money they make illegally back to their home countries! Tens of thousands danced in the streets and burned American flags when 9/11 occurred!

They want to change this Country into another Mexico and they, with the help of our Elected Officials are!

They are everyplace in American, both large & small, the official numbers are vastly understated & the actual numbers are closer to 30 million than the government deliberate underreporting of 10 to 11 million & another 10,000 are pouring across our open Borders, every day but our Corrupt/Stupid President refuses to Enforce the Immigration Laws!

They form a country within this country off limits to American Citizens and call us Stupid Americans for paying them to take over this country by Illegal Invasion! They are right we are Totally Insanely Stupid to allow this to happen & continue!

No Nation on Earth can withstand an Illegal Invasion of this magnitude of poorly educated immigrants with an average 8 grade educations & a 50% school dropout rate! To do so will profoundly change the country for the worse and turning it into a facsimile of the country where the Illegal Aliens came from.

This letter is not from xenophobia, I strongly believe controlled and legal Immigration built this country, but it should be based on the rule of law & people that want American citizenship, be Americans, and willing to contribute to this country for all citizens and not to abuse and use our System for gain!

It is certainly not fair to the American taxpayers or the 10,s of thousand that get robbed, killed, and raped each year, or to the Million of other people around the world wanting & dreaming of coming to this country legally and abiding by the Law.

The Blatant disregard of the Immigration law by our Politicians is for only one reason Money, they receive from Businesses and Companies for providing them with nearly Slave labor so they can reward their unlimited greed & let the taxpayers pay billions in benefits for their Slave Labor!

If it was just the Politicians Kind Hearts and Compassion there are millions of American children living in poverty without a chance at the American dream. Millions without medical care & old people choosing between medicine or food & millions of American Veterans without adequate medical care!

The fine Upstanding Honorable Politicians could shower tax dollars on them to show their compassion! Of course, the problem is they don't get paid for being compassionate to American Citizens!

The Majority of Americans want our Borders closed and Illegal Aliens in this country send back to their own countries but our Politicians would rather collect the Money from Businesses and Companies they supply with Slave Labor than protect American Citizens or keep this country from turning into a third world country!

Every few years the Politicians pull a bait and switch on the American Public and promise to Enforce our Immigration Laws if only we reward the millions with green cards, guess workers programs etc. they let in though prior years by not enforcing the laws, Like John McCain's & Ted Kennedy S.1033 bill.

Once the Bill is passed they ignore the Enforcement part of the bill & repeat the same cycle over again. The Politicians in this country really think American Citizens are stupid and they are a power onto their selves & can do any thing they want!

They would have us believe the Illegal Aliens are only here taking jobs Americans won't, take, which is true, because American citizens at the present time will not live 40 to the house like Illegal Aliens or work for slave wages while the Company owners and Business executives reward their selves with millions in salary and benefits!

But as millions more slip into poverty, just in August it was reported 1.1million more Americans slip into poverty, the day is fast approaching where working Citizens will be forced to live like that while the Rich grow Richer, and the Middle class & the Poor ..Poorer! Bush's willing workers for willing employers are code words for willing slaves for willing Slave users!

Or can we collect the 100,s of Billions in benefits that Illegal Aliens are rewarded with from tax payer's money! Or do most Americans want benefits but a decent job with a livable wage. But the Politicians care much more about rewarding & in turn collecting big donations from greedy Business owners and Company Officials than protection American citizens from living like the Peons in Latin American!

Below is a partial list of Politicians that are, either Corrupt or Stupid enough to not realize their Policies are helping destroy Millions of American lives by Drugs, Murder, Rape & other Crimes while lowering our Standard of living and turning this country into a third world country!

Partial list of traitors to this Country either thru. Stupidly or outright Treason!

Number one on the List President Bush then John McCain (R-AZ) Edward Kennedy (D-MA)...
Richard Durbin (D-IL) Larry Craig (R-ID), Mel Martinez (R-FL), Ken Salazar (D-CO), Chuck Hagel (R-NE), Christpher Dodd (D-CT), John Kerry (D-MA), Evan Bayh (D-IN)

Then in the House ....Luis Gutierrez (D-IL), Bob Menendez (D-NJ), Chris Cannon (R-UT), Raul Grijalva (D-AZ), Jim Kolbe (R-AZ)Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Joe Baca (D-CA), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), Linda Sanchez (D-CA), Jane Harman (D-CA), Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX), Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), David Price (D-NC), Carolyn Maloney (D-NY), Mark Udall (D-CO)

.Governors : Bill Richardson (D-NM), Rod Blagojevich (R-IL), Bill Huckabee (R-AR), Janet Napolitano (D-AZ),Jim Huntsman (R-UT), John Baldacci (D-ME)

If any of you think Illegal Aliens are not lowering our standard of living, or costing this country 100.s of Billions of dollars, or committing 10,s of thousands of crimes against American Citizens them I suggest you get involved and do some research. If doing research is to taxing on the brain just go into the barrios some night! I think most of you that think, you are fine Liberal Compassion people may find your compassion is misguided and better spent on American Citizens, providing you escape and live long enough to change!

If we are stupid enough to let Corrupt Politicians give this country away without firing a shot, then I guess we deserve it. But it is a shame that the ones that are aware of what is happening; have to pay the same price, as the ones that are to Greedy, or to Stupid, to Lazy, or to Unconcerned, or in the case of our Politicians to Corrupt and wanting the votes and money they get for destroying this Country and Betraying American!

All American Citizens that love this country and want to preserve it for the future should write and do all they can to change their Policies! Ones that continue to Support Mexico and Illegal Aliens Invasion, do not enforce our Immigration Laws & support rewarding Illegal Invasion by green cards, guess worker programs or any other Reward deserve our utmost Scorn & Contempt & should be deported to Mexico! They will be much more content where the Rich & Corrupt rules & the rest are powerless and poor & victims of the Criminals!

Posted by: Illegal is Illegal | March 23, 2006 08:52 AM

Messner, Messner... Love the name. Is that German? Say, Emily, want to meet for coffee some time?

Posted by: Hans | March 23, 2006 10:25 AM

Illegal, are you retarded?..

Posted by: Alberto Gonzales | March 23, 2006 10:44 AM


From Greg in New Canaan

In late 2004 the state of New York proposedthat non-U.S. citizens be given the right to vote (a politically motivated welfare virus that would spread across the country as they spread across the country). We will do our elected officials a favor by relieving them of decisions about giving illegal aliens the right to vote them into power. As bad as things are, we haven't seen many Special Interest "monsters" with this much negative potential.

Although it is impossible to say precisely how many illegal immigrants reside in the United States, because they are not going to readily identify themselves, a January 3, 2005 report entitled "The Underground Labor Force Is Rising To The Surface," Robert Justich and Betty Ng, CFA at Wall Street investment bank Bear Stearns, estimated that:

"The number of illegal immigrants in the United States may be as high as 20 million people, more than double the official 9 million people estimated by the Census Bureau. The total number of legalized immigrants entering the United States since 1990 has averaged 962,000 per year. Several credible studies indicate that the number of illegal entries has recently crept up to 30 million per year, triple the authorized figure, and that undocumented immigrants are gaining a larger share of the job market, and hold approximately 12 to 15 million jobs in the United States (8% of the employed)."

Illegal aliens now comprise 6% of our total population. That is three times the total Jewish population, eight times more than there are American Indians, and roughly half as many as there are African-Americans. The fact that most of our country's corporate and governmental interactive voice response telephone systems now give us a choice between English and Spanish is stark confirmation of many Americans' feeling of being overrun by illegal entrants who primarily invade California and Arizona, by the thousands, day and night, 365 days a year.

Immigration is one issue where the good intentions of the "bleeding heart" segment of the liberal movement have really hurt us as a nation, and yet we continue to permit this socioeconomic "cancer" to invade our homeland. Illegal immigrants have successfully established a beachhead from which more of their kind can slip in, and we are rapidly approaching a saturation point where "have-nots" who could not make it in their own country suck up welfare and healthcare dollars, overburden our schools, and may soon be able to vote our country into bankruptcy.

The special interest clout of the immigrant community is growing with each passing day. A vicious societal cycle is already in full swing: a cycle that has trapped our politicians in a "black hole" that threatens to pull the rest of us in with them. By not getting tough on immigration and by enacting overly generous legislation and societal programs that are like "honey to bees," our elected officials have fostered an invasion of largely unskilled "have-nots" who expect to be treated as our equals.

Once these individuals get in, they have children who are born into citizenship and who grow up to vote for politicians who will allow more of their foreign relatives to invade our land and siphon off our hard-earned national wealth. We-the-People cannot afford to have our right to vote given away to people who refuse to play by the rules and obey the laws that any stable society must maintain. If we do not take a firm stand now, they will become the majority and vote us out of house and home. We must stop this shredding of our country's basic fabric while America is still recognizable. We need to restore dignity to our right to vote - a right that should not be for sale by politicians in their never-ending quest for votes and cash.

A classic case-in-point was made by an article in the Washington Post ("Immigration Issue Threatens GOP's Fla. Stronghold - Cuban Americans Angry Over 'Wet Foot' Policy," February 17, 2006), which described a political furor in Florida by Cuban Americans who were protesting what is known as a "wet foot, dry foot" policy that allows Cubans fleeing communism to reside in the United States if they reach dry land. While most Cuban immigrants have distinguished themselves as hardworking, productive, U.S. citizens, it is still troubling to think that, because we humanely relaxed our immigration policy for this special group (favoring them over others who were equally deserving), they are now here in such electoral numbers as to be able to force politicians to bend the rules even further; thereby adding to their ranks and further transforming south Florida into a virtual south American nation. Bend anything far enough and frequently enough and eventually it will break.

Bad Mannered Guests
When, in the name of political expediency, we permit illegal aliens to leapfrog both our immigration laws and the people who apply legally, we are letting in a distorted mindset of entitlement and poor values that is toxic to our culture. It is time that We-the-People send a message back across our borders that our laws must be taken seriously and will be enforced. We need to stop taking in immigrants, especially unskilled minorities, until we can care for, respect and absorb the ones that we already have. We need to take care of our own needy citizens before we pile more onto an already overloaded system. This has never been more salient than in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when we saw true pain and suffering on the faces of our own people, in our own land. This is not being xenophobic; it is common sense, and far more humane than continuing to compound the problem that improperly managed immigration brings.

As the old adage goes, "The Lord helps those who help themselves." If people are unhappy with the way things are in their homeland, then, instead of fleeing, they must unite to effect change and, if need be, to spill their own blood on their own soil. It is time we send a message that, although we care about our fellow human beings, they must clean up their own messes, not bring them here in the form of an endless wave of asylum seekers - legal or illegal. Our welfare system simply cannot bear much more of it. We-the-People want to help, but our nation is not an open checkbook meant to ease the woes of the world. It does us no good to act as such, and, in the long run, it does the oppressed peoples of the world no good either; in fact, it perpetuates their weakness. The solution is not to run away from their problems; the solution is to face them.

We seem to have forgotten that, originally, we opened America's door to our fellow men from foreign lands in the same spirit that we would invite someone into our home. As a guest in someone's home, you do not suddenly demand that your host change his or her values and way of life. You do not speak in an unintelligible language or converse openly just amongst your fellow foreign guests in the presence of your host or employer. Egged on by the well-meaning American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), new immigrants have subverted a basic behavioral ground rule: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Our country was founded on a belief in God. For most of us that means "Christianity." For those who would have been excluded from many other countries to come in and start making waves in our societal "living room," is more than bad form. It is hostile and threatening to the nature and quality of American life. If you wish to practice special cultural or religious beliefs, we will support you as long as you do it on your own time in your own place. Don't try to change the game after we let you in. In this age of terror don't be so ridiculously obtuse as to insist on wearing a veil for your driver's license photo.

An article from The New York Times ("Maine: Limit To Questions On Citizenship," April 13, 2004) illuminates the just how low and ridiculously illogical some vote-pandering, cynically "politically correct" politicians will stoop:
"Gov. John Baldacci has signed an executive order limiting the circumstances in which state employees can ask about the immigration status of residents seeking services. The order allows employees to ask about the status only in specific situations: when such disclosure is required by law, for example, or when the resident is suspected of unlawful activity other than being in the country illegally. Mr. Baldacci, a Democrat, signed the order after meetings with social service, civil rights, and community organizations. The sessions were held to help ease relations between the groups and state officials after Border Patrol agents swept through stores, restaurants, and a homeless shelter in Portland in January."

Is that not what our Border Patrol and other immigration law enforcement personnel are supposed to do? Why should we limit our right to protect ourselves?

Illegal? No driver's license, no welfare, no rights.
In a January 21st, 2005 interview by CNN News, a migrant labor organizer in Long Island, NY asserted that illegal alien workers are being forced to work as slaves. However, unlike the African slaves brought to our country 150 years ago, these immigrant workers are not being forced to come here. We need to teach respect for the fact that U.S. citizenship is an honor and a privilege, not a right or a convenience. This is not a platitude; it is an irrefutable fact that those fortunate enough to reside in the United States of America need to keep in mind. We have made a mockery out of the honor of gaining citizenship in this country by naturalizing virtually anyone, even if they do not speak English - our national language; and then we wonder why there is such disunity, feelings of disenfranchisement, scorn, and factionalism throughout the land. Factions are a natural part of society, but factionalism is not; factionalism is a societal poison that leads to fanaticism.

A Dishonest and Self-serving Economic Rationale
Granting amnesty to illegal aliens because our economy needs them is a specious argument that benefits no one except those who are taking advantage of a covert, cheap labor force. America is a country based on capitalism and the law of supply and demand. If this illegal workforce were not here, the people now employing them would be forced to pay market rates and employ real Americans who are currently unemployed and waiting for an opportunity to contribute to, rather than take from, our economy.

In the February 12th edition of the Internet newsletter CounterPunch (www.counterpunch.org) Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, former Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review writes:

"Forget Iran, Americans Should be Hysterical About This: Job growth over the last five years is the weakest on record. The U.S. economy came up more than 7 million jobs short of keeping up with population growth. That's one good reason for controlling immigration. An economy that cannot keep up with population growth should not be boosting population with heavy rates of legal and illegal immigration."

As for those immigrants who do not work, it is important to remember that welfare is for hardworking citizens with a temporary problem; it is not a right and tool of immigration. Misguided "bleeding-heart" protection of "have-nots" who will not work threatens to overwhelm our country with a welfare electoral majority that will suck the life out of our finances and the financial future of our children. We need to institute a rule that no immigrant is eligible until they have been naturalized for at least five years. In addition, they should not be eligible for citizenship until they speak English, can pass a test in English, and have found gainful employment, no matter how meager. In America, you can always move up.

It is one thing to protect our citizens' rights, but it is quite another to extend that protection to illegals who are not likely to respect the values of our nation or the privileges that come to them without being earned. A sad case in point is Zacarias Moussaoui, the convicted hijacker who wanted to "learn how to steer a plane" but did not care about taking off or landing. We arrested him but felt prevented from looking at the contents of his laptop. Had we done so, the World Trade Center and the Pentagon building, as well as countless lives at home and abroad, might very well have been saved.

I'll close this chapter with a humorous, but telling, piece that has been floating around the Internet. While Mexico is the subject country it could apply to any nation whose people trample our immigration laws and public laws of conduct:

"Try this:
Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.
Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family. Demand bilingual nurses and doctors.
Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc.
Procreate abundantly.
Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive behavior with, 'It is a cultural U.S.A. Thing. You would not understand, pal.'
Keep your American identity strong. Fly Old Glory from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.
Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your children do likewise.
Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.
Demand a local Mexican driver's license. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico.
Drive around with no liability insurance and ignore local traffic laws.
Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its officers.
Good luck! You'll be demanding until the end of time because it will never happen. It will not happen in Mexico or any other country in the world except right here in the United States; land of the naive and stupid and idiotic, politically correct, politicians.

If you agree, pass it on. If you don't, go ahead and try the above in Mexico or Iraq."

Posted by: | March 23, 2006 11:04 AM

Hey "JAXAS":
You posted:
"Isn't this the most astonishing thing? I have always been fascinated by the sweep of history; of how history takes its own turn of desseminating a sort of beautiful poetic justice."

"History doesn't "do" anything, jackass. People act, and create their world. There is no "poetic justice."

Perhaps you are just trying to yank America's chain for kicks, or maybe you are navel-gazing, in some form of self-absorbed philisophical entertainment.

These are deadly serious issues to hundreds of millions of people. A nation is being subverted, and submerged, and it is a nation that (whether it flies against your little outsider ego or not) has been a great place to live (witness that billions want to come here from the rotten places they live in). And don't even trot out the tired old falsehood that the third world is so rotten simply because exploitation and complete control by the evil white man. That's a mentality of priviledged victimhood, and it perpetuates incompotence and helplessness, not to mention convenient lies.
The Third World is a wreck because of third worlders. (incompotence, corruption, violence and a lack of any unified, brave action on the part of whole populations is the general formula for war, disaster, disease, social dysfunction, cruelty, racism, discrimination, backwardness and mysery in the third world).
America has historically been a great place, because of its people. (We have been immensely forward-thinking, liberal, bold and industrious, by any standard in the entire history of the planet).
It's that simple-if hard for many to swallow. If you are a professional nihlist, West-hater, relativist, or perhaps an ethnic minority that simply wants to tear down white culture and replace it with your own, then choke it down hard, if you have to . But face facts.
America is in dire straits not because of some artful fantasy of poetic justice, but because her people have become politically complacent, and they surrendered the everyday governace of their land to politicians, and focused instead on work, leisure, family, etc. Americans say their system was hijacked by special interests, but truly, Americans invited these into the cockpit by simply sitting down and going along for the ride. Sixty-hour work weeks haven't helped, of course. A lot of us just got jaded and tired at the same time.
Now we are being bullied by small but perversely influential special interests, and since racial lobbies (minority lobbies) scream loud and often (and becaues politicians live for re-election), said racial minorities and all their narrow, racist interests, are taking a huge toll on effective government, freedom of expression, rule of law, and justice. Especially for the majority, which was at least 90% White as recently as 1965. And since Americans have allowed themselves to be cowed by the orthodoxy of political correctness, there is a palpable FEAR of standing up for Anglo culture. Everybody cringes at the mere thought of the knee-jerk epithets of "racist," "xenophobe," and even "Nazi," (though nobody calling anyoe else a Nazi, even knows what Nazism was, or if it even really exists today, for cripe's sakes).
We have undermined ourselves, and all that made us great. (Rant against that statement all you want, but the achievements of the Western world are utterly staggering, in comparison to everything created or advanced by the rest of the world. The list of great inventors, politicians, warriors, innovators, philosophers, artists, scientists, physicians, organizations, etc. is so long, we could read them for months. The world we know today- and virtually all its progress- would not exist at all, if not for those of European stock. With the Western World, you have the computer, the space program, the airplane, Mozart. With the third world, you have spears, mud huts, and brushing your teeth with the dust of fire-dried cow dung. The gap between is immeasurable It is not a boast; it is merely fact. I get no charge, or ego-boost by saying this. I am simply irritated when anybody tries so hard to refute obvious facts. And that has become great sport for many minorities lately...not to mention the self-loathing whites who get an ego-boost by identifying themselves as outsiders, or rebels. (Sure, "rebels"). They think they are making some big statement by wearing a Che' Guevara shirt. What crap.

There's no justice here at all, just complacency on one side (though hardly in the way of work- white Americans still bust their butts), and a power grab on the other. Minorities are on the take, for all they can get, and for all the talk of equality, it is about nothing more than narrow racial self-interest, at the expense of all other groups.
If the erosion of America and the West continues, it will be no cause for celebration for anybody. For as Western ways crumble, they will be replaced by Third-world ways. As Western values-along with Westerners- become rare, the great spirit and morals of the third world will level the planet.
"GOT CHAOS?"

That's why good people will fight tooth and nail to preserve America and the West. You might want to consider throwing in and doing your share.

Posted by: Alex | March 24, 2006 03:47 AM

I would like a discussion about the impact on the quality of life and environment due to the increasing population density and what to me seems like exponentially increasing numbers of immigrants. Nevermind all of the other questions about the impacts of immigration,i.e. cultural, economic, political, etc.. Americans need to understand that as the population explodes we will simply not be able to maintain our consumerist and indulgent lifestyles. If all of these masses are coming to enjoy the American dream, that dream might become a nightmare as the pressures on a limited number of resources trashes the environment and pollution and the cost of living rise and rise. In turn, some freedoms that Americans have taken for granted may have to be curbed as population pressures require limitations on certain behaviours for the greater good. I don't see much discussion about this aspect/impact from continuing uncontrolled immigration. The talk is mostly about jobs, cultural divides, besieged entitlement programs etc.. I'm not sure if you truly had an open-border policy and welcomed anyone who showed up this would be a country worth living in after too long. To those who say "We are a nation of immigrants" as if that means we should keep the inflow constantly pouring forever, I say for how long? It's true that this country was populated by immigrants but we were a developing country then. We are now a fully developed country that has been settled from coast to coast. If you were raised in the U.S. and you've had the opportunity to live for some time (not travel to but actually live in) in a place with a very high population density I doubt you would wish the same here at home. Americans need to understand that there is no way that their children and grand children will not be able to enjoy the same quality of life if we continue to look the other way while millions pour across our borders and we don't have the will to do anything about. I'm all for diversity, and I do believe immigrants from all corners of the earth have contributed greatly to the advancement of this country in every area, but we need to wake up and understand the impact of a constantly expanding population. Heck, my wife is an hispanic immigrant and she understands this perfectly well.

Posted by: Bill | March 26, 2006 01:52 PM

The course of this debate mystifies me.

Security is a valid issue for this debate; so are compassion, human rights and dignity, public cost, and others, but there is an issue I believe to be central that I have yet to hear or see mentioned in the public forum. What really motivates the huge influx of immigration, who provides the means for it to take place? Where does the money come from?

Consider that an employer of undocumented workers has the choice between legal and illegal immigrants, and consistently chooses to hire illegally, and ask why. The first place to look for the answer to any question about business decisions is to look at the money. By paying illegal immigrants in cash, off the books, employers realize a savings rate between 30%, assuming they pay illegals the the same take-home rate as legal workers, to more than 60% for employers who exploit illegal status to discount pay rates.

One interesting point to make about that 30% savings estimate is that it comes wholly from evasion of witholding and SSA contributions, which brings me to the detail I find it most shocking nobody's talking about: THIS IS TAX EVASION ON THE MOST MASSIVE SCALE EVER COMMITED IN THIS NATION. This, my people, is the real face of organized crime in America.

I don't believe we really need a wall, though it would be a monumental curiosity. I don't believe any change in current law is required to get a handle on the illegal immigration issue. Why don't we simply use the law that brought down Al Capone to lock up the employers who sponsor the coyotes? It would simplify the immigration situation immensely, and largely obviate this entire debate.

Both illegal workers and their employers are criminally engaged in tax evasion, but it's the employers who provide the money to make it happen, it's the employers who make legalization strategies irrelevant, and it's the employers who need to be put away.

Posted by: Ken Lonquest | March 27, 2006 12:10 PM

Everybody wonders how we can deport 12 million illegals. If the government would inforce the law and lock them up till deportation, you would be suprised how many would head south. But we have to inforce the law to the letter. Fingerprint them and when they apply for citizenship later they would be declined for being an illegal. That would bring a stop to a lot of illegals but we have to inforce the laws to the letter. And anchor babies are illegals they should be deported as well.

Posted by: Vic Bailey | March 31, 2006 11:01 AM

I see a lot of stuff in these postings about "it's the White Man's fault".

One quick sentence to the bleeding-heart idiots that feel that way... GET YOUR ASS OUT OF MY COUNTRY!!! This country was built BY and FOR the White Man, and anybody that infiltrates this country with a negative thought about the United States has made a wrong turn somewhere. Just get your ass OUT of here!

Posted by: Olphartyfart | April 3, 2006 05:50 PM

I am extremely opposed to this bill. Bringing in 4M workers for low income jobs would seriously take jobs from Americans. This country already has high enough unemployment rate & with jobs leaving for foreign outsourcing everyday, this only makes it worse for low income workers to find jobs. In addition, I would truly be supportive of having all illegal workers be escorted out of this country immediately. Understandably, these people are hard workers with families just like mine that need to be taken care of. But, there are families that live in poverty everyday here. In addition, these illegal immigrants not only put a strain on the workers, they also put the burden of health care on the government too. I am from a low income family and have strived & attained a middle class lifestyle now. I know what it's like to be poor & I know the struggles that these people must be going through. But, the plain fact is, we have insufficient health care for Americans & taking jobs from low income workers not only enhances poverty in the United states, it also takes money from the local economies. These illegal immigrant workers send their wages to their home countries. These workers say they deserve American rights & privileges but, they are not American. In fact, everytime you see one of them protesting....are they waiving an American flag. I think not. They waive flags of their birth countries. I do not sympathise with anyone who says they are "American" too & then waives another flag. In fact, I become very disgusted. I am a proud American. My father was born in the Philippines & served in the Army for the United States. My mother was born here in the US but, I'm sure that somewhere down the line my ancestors came directly from Germany and Ireland. But, we are American. And we are very proud to be American. None of us claim another country other than the United States. Anyway, I truly believe we need to get our own people straight before we can start giving away jobs to illegals. Thank you for you time, Jon Andres topshelf8@msn.com

Posted by: Jonny Andres | April 5, 2006 02:48 PM

Im a asian-american,our goverment needs to secure our bordersand keep illegal immigrants out. The goverment says our soial security will be out of funds in 2040 and they want to let all these illegal immigrant stay in the united states without paying taxes like every american

Posted by: Cathy | May 2, 2006 02:00 PM

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